Author: Starpower

In a recent episode of the "DePIN Power" podcast, Starpower co-founder Laser engaged in an in-depth conversation with Messari researcher Dylan, discussing the applications and future development of DePIN (Decentralized Physical Infrastructure Networks) in the energy sector. Dylan is one of the leading experts in the fields of DePIN and RWA (Real World Assets), sharing the latest trends in the cryptocurrency market and expressing an optimistic outlook on DePIN's potential to lead the next bull market. Laser introduced Starpower's progress in energy DePIN and discussed the importance of blockchain platforms in driving the DePIN ecosystem. This conversation delved into key issues surrounding energy DePIN, global market opportunities, and considerations behind technology selection, bringing new insights into the intersection of the cryptocurrency and energy industries.

The audio recording and translation were generated by GPT, so there may be some errors. Please listen to the complete podcast:

Starpower Youtube: https://youtu.be/j16dt4OxTyA

Introduction and Guest Introduction

Laser invited Dylan to the podcast, introducing the background of the Starpower project and the popularity of DePIN. Dylan introduced his work at Messari and his past experiences.

Laser

I’m very pleased to have you here today, Dylan. You could say you are one of the top experts in the DePIN field, always bringing deep insights. It’s an honor to have you with us today; let me briefly introduce our situation.

I am a co-founder of Starpower. We are a DePIN project in the energy sector, and based on equipment activation volume, we should be the largest energy DePIN project currently. Today, we want to host a podcast focused on the theme of DePIN.

We are eager to learn about your personal background and what prompted you to join Messari, and we’d also like to hear your recent views on this industry. This field is currently very hot.

Dylan

Thank you for having me. I am a research analyst at Messari. I mainly focus on DePIN and RWA (Real World Assets) infrastructure, as well as some AI-related content. This is part of our corporate team’s work.

Regarding my background, I previously worked at T. Rowe Price, a large asset management company in the U.S., as part of their digital assets team. I helped develop their tokenization strategy and participated in some of their early investment outlooks, primarily focused on mainstream crypto assets, but also including how to integrate these strategies into their multi-asset department. I have also worked in the crypto venture capital space. During my time at university (Princeton), I co-founded the blockchain club and have been involved in various projects over the past 5 to 7 years. Early on, I participated in a real estate tokenization startup, attempting to fractionalize homes into rental property shares.

Now, I mainly focus on DePIN, which is definitely one of the hottest segments in the crypto space right now. I also think it is the most interesting from a knowledge perspective.

Current Cryptocurrency Market Dynamics

Dylan shared market dynamics such as the cryptocurrency bull market following Trump's election and the revival of DeFi.

Laser

Great, great. It sounds like you’ve been involved in the blockchain industry since your university days. I also saw your profile mentioning that you founded a blockchain-related organization during college, then moved into venture capital, and finally joined Messari. Messari is definitely the leading research institution in this industry. So, your experience is very rich, spanning from academia to non-research fields. Based on your experience, the crypto industry has been very hot lately; have you noticed any new trends or interesting developments? Of course, DePIN is one of them.

Dylan

Yes, I think the biggest news right now is the election. Trump winning the election has sparked a bull market in cryptocurrencies and the stock market, and even broader market sentiment has been affected. This is largely because Trump has shown support for cryptocurrencies. He has promised some measures, such as establishing a strategic Bitcoin reserve for the U.S. and ending the SEC's crackdown on the crypto industry. He also mentioned releasing Silk Road founder Ross Ulbricht and is generally very supportive of cryptocurrencies. This has triggered a Bitcoin-led bull market, with Bitcoin recently surpassing $90,000, reaching even $93,000 at the time of recording this conversation.

Other markets are also following this upward trend, with DeFi performing very well, with some even calling it a "DeFi revival." Derivatives platforms like Hyper Liquid are very popular and may soon release tokens, while Jupiter and Raydium have also performed excellently. In terms of infrastructure, platforms like Solana, Avalanche, and even Ethereum, which performed poorly this year, have rebounded. DePIN is also performing well, with projects like Helium and other public token projects like io.net and Xnet showing good performance over the past week. Overall, the sentiment in the crypto market is very positive. Additionally, the Federal Reserve plans to cut interest rates in December, coupled with an improving overall economic environment, which makes the market even more optimistic. That’s the current overall situation.

DePIN's Potential as a Bull Market Leader

Laser mentioned the possibility of DePIN as a bull market leader, and Dylan analyzed the current state of the DePIN field and its potential future impact.

Laser

Yes, I feel that after Trump's election, the entire crypto industry has indeed been greatly boosted, and we have reached historical highs. As for specific segments of the crypto industry, I find that DePIN—though I may have some personal bias—could become the leader of this bull market. I’d like to hear your thoughts on whether DePIN has the potential to lead this bull market or become one of the hottest narratives in the bull market.

I remember when we just founded Starpower two years ago, very few people knew about DePIN, especially since our team is located in Australia and East Asia, and hardly anyone was talking about this topic at that time. But after two years, this topic has started to heat up. I’m very interested in hearing your views on the DePIN industry, whether it has the potential to lead this bull market, and what its long-term prospects are.

Dylan

Absolutely. Over the past year, the DePIN field has achieved a lot of success. Early-stage financing has increased by over 500% year-on-year, and the performance of public tokens has been similar. Just comparing the third quarter, financing growth was close to 700%. We see a significant increase in investor interest in DePIN, both in early private markets and in public markets. Many exciting DePIN protocols are emerging, covering areas like energy and wireless communication, such as GEONET's RTK base stations, Broadcast and Pipe's CDN networks, and GPU computing networks, with new projects appearing almost every week. These DePIN projects are addressing very large problems and face vast scalable markets. I believe this positions DePIN as a potential leader in this market cycle and even in the coming years.

However, there are currently not many public tokens for DePIN, and many of the most promising protocols are still in testnet or early stages. These projects are focusing more on building their business, token economics, and game theory rather than rushing to launch tokens. I think this is a good thing. The biggest advantage of DePIN is that it creates real-world value through cryptographic technology, building real businesses. I believe this value creation is something that other industries cannot achieve. So regarding the narrative of DePIN, such as the already released tokens like Render, io.net, and Helium, I think they will perform very well in this market cycle. Once those early protocols launch tokens and solidify their businesses, DePIN will experience a significant explosion, potentially becoming one of the largest, if not the largest, segments in the crypto industry over the next 5 to 10 years.

The Importance of the Energy Sector in DePIN (00:09:41 - 00:12:30)

The two discussed the enormous potential of DePIN in the energy sector, particularly in areas like solar panel deployment, virtual power plants, and demand response.

Laser

Yes, recently we saw the launch of Grass's token, which performed very well. I feel that in the next three to six months, DePIN will be very hot.

Okay, let’s return to the topic of energy. We’ve previously talked to some people in the DePIN field, and some of them are very optimistic about energy-related DePIN projects. In the past six months, three to five energy-related DePIN projects have raised over $10 million each from institutions like a16z, USV, and Multicoin, and we have also raised from Alliance. I find it hard to find another DePIN field with such momentum recently. What do you think about this?

Dylan

Yes, I believe energy is indeed one of the most exciting subfields of DePIN in this cycle. This is mainly because the opportunities in this field are immense. First, the world is striving to transition to cleaner energy, and many governments are trying to reduce carbon emissions. Clean energy, such as solar and wind, is the best way to achieve this goal. Currently, solar energy is the cheapest energy source globally, and DePIN may be the best way to incentivize the installation and expansion of solar panels, at least in terms of capital efficiency. This is a huge opportunity, and first-tier venture capitalists have already recognized this.

Moreover, there are many challenges in integrating solar panels and distributed energy resources into the grid. Coordinating these resources is a massive challenge, and virtual power plants and demand response programs can address real-time data issues and assist in modernizing the grid. Therefore, incentivizing new solar deployments represents a huge market. Analysts estimate that in the U.S. alone, trillions of dollars will be needed annually to upgrade the grid to accommodate renewable energy. DePIN can address a significant portion of this issue, which is very meaningful. That’s why there are so many opportunities in this field, and why it is so exciting.

I believe energy is one of the most significant narratives in this cycle. The wireless sector is also performing well, with Helium recently reaching eight-figure annualized revenue, and DAWN and XNET also achieving great results. Of course, these are also trillion-dollar problems, but energy is a matter of survival and could potentially be the largest market in the world. If DePIN can make strides in the energy sector, it would be a massive breakthrough at any level.

Differences Among Various DePIN Protocols (00:12:44 - 00:17:13)

Dylan analyzed three main issues and directions in energy DePIN projects: incentivizing solar deployment, integrating distributed energy resources, and the marketization of real-world assets.

Laser

Yes. I think another reason why energy DePIN is becoming a hot field is its close relationship with AI. Marc and Ben recently discussed the issues of AI and energy. On one hand, there is congestion caused by increased computational demand, and on the other hand, there is congestion in the U.S. grid system, along with the accelerated installation of solar panels. It’s like an "impossible triangle," and solving this problem is a huge challenge. Ensuring a sustainable power supply and the sustainable development of AI is a significant issue. So energy DePIN is like the "twin brother" of AI.

Additionally, I want to ask, energy is a very large field. You must have done in-depth research in this area. There are many projects in this field; from your perspective, what are the differences between these projects? For example, one project focuses on one issue while another focuses on a different issue. What are the reasons and differences behind them?

Dylan

Yes, I believe each protocol in the energy sector is unique. Some protocols are indeed addressing the same issues, while others are tackling multiple problems. So it’s hard to categorize all protocols into one type. But I think the three biggest issues currently are:

The first is incentivizing the deployment and installation of solar panels and solar power plants. By providing token rewards, we can help people overcome the barriers to installing solar energy, whether it’s rooftop solar, solar power plants, or purchasing and connecting clean energy-related equipment like batteries or EV charging stations. I think this is an important area, and Starpower is doing this to some extent, along with some other projects in the U.S. doing similar things.

The second major issue is coordination, which involves integrating distributed energy resources (DER) into the grid. I believe blockchain is the best way to solve this problem because it provides verifiable on-chain data and can connect to DeFi blockchain networks. The composability of blockchain allows it to collaborate with many applications, thereby improving the efficiency of energy coordination. At the same time, it can incentivize users to share their data and even hand over their energy control to operators of virtual power plants. These operators can create cost savings for the grid, and these savings will be passed on to users.

The third major issue is the marketization of real-world assets (RWA), such as investing in solar projects. These are like tokenized equity forms, where investors can earn returns and yields through their investments, and these processes are entirely on-chain. This creates more liquidity for these assets, as their liquidity is very low in traditional markets. For example, investing in a solar power plant or wind turbine is very difficult in traditional markets. Blockchain can provide a platform for tokenization and trading of these assets through built-in DeFi markets and networks.

I believe these issues are closely interconnected, which is why many companies are working in these cross-sectional areas. At the same time, some companies are trying peer-to-peer energy trading, which is a very complex issue and is still in the early and conceptual stages. So, I would categorize these issues into three types, with each protocol addressing these problems in its own way, and sometimes they may address all issues simultaneously.

Geographical Focus of DePIN Protocols (00:17:25 - 00:18:47)

The two discussed the different focuses of DePIN protocols in various geographical regions and the potential for these protocols to expand globally.

Laser

Yes, I think different protocols also focus on different geographical regions.

Dylan

Yes, yes, that’s absolutely correct. For example, I feel that Daylight is completely focused on the U.S., while Fuse is currently entirely focused on Europe. Some projects are more focused on the Asian market, while others are global or intend to build a global virtual power plant. So, different protocols have different approaches and geographical divisions. At the same time, due to the enormous scale of the energy market (5 to 10 trillion dollars), I feel that there isn’t much substantial competition among these protocols at the moment; they are more competing with Web2 and traditional solutions.

Laser

Yes, the space in this field is very large. If we put all the Web3 energy DePIN projects in one room, we might not even see each other because there is so much going on in this field.

Dylan

I completely agree, completely agree.

Performance of Different Blockchain Platforms in the DePIN Ecosystem (00:18:51 - 00:23:23)

Laser and Dylan discussed the differences in the deployment of DePIN projects on Solana, EVM, and other blockchains. Dylan analyzed the reasons for Solana's popularity in DePIN projects.

Laser

I have another question. DePIN is definitely one of the hottest narratives right now. We see many Layer 1 or Layer 2 blockchains pushing their DePIN ecosystems, with Solana performing the best. We are also building on Solana.

After researching so many DePIN projects, what is your perspective? Some projects are built on EVM, some on Solana, and others on IoTeX or Polygon. What are the differences between them from a technical or economic perspective?

Dylan

Yes, I think one interesting aspect of DePIN is that it is finally addressing a real problem. This is a real application scenario. I believe most underlying blockchains, whether Solana, Polygon, or Ethereum, can support DePIN. However, we do see many protocols choosing to build or migrate to Solana. I think one reason is that Solana has focused on becoming an easy-to-use Layer 1 blockchain over the past few years, with extremely low transaction fees and high transaction capacity. This is very attractive to DePIN projects because they do not want to face network congestion like Ethereum or deal with the complexities of understanding Layer 2's experimental or liquidity fragmentation issues. So Solana naturally becomes a default choice. The Solana team has also done a great job promoting and supporting DePIN projects. For many DePIN projects, Solana is seen as a relatively safe building platform because it has fewer Layer 2 experiments. As for the purely theoretical discussions about decentralization or the "Twitter debates" between Solana and Ethereum, these are not important for DePIN projects. DePIN projects are more focused on solving their own problems, such as coordination and network launch. They just need a reliable and functioning underlying network. Moreover, since many DePIN projects are on Solana, the composability and interoperability between them become very easy. So Solana is gradually becoming the default building platform. The peaq project you mentioned that launched yesterday also has a very strong ecosystem. IoTeX also has a strong ecosystem. These blockchains attract many projects by providing modular and service-oriented solutions for DePIN projects. In the future, we will see whether Solana continues to be the main platform or if more decentralization occurs, with some DePIN projects opting for more "customized" solutions. I would summarize the current landscape this way.

Laser

Yes, I personally feel that for DePIN projects, from a technical and deployment perspective, our top priority is ease of use and low transaction fees. As you mentioned, whether it is fully decentralized is not important to us. Because the goal of all DePIN projects, or the problems we want to solve, are real-world issues. For all energy-related DePIN projects, our goal is to accelerate the development of renewable energy in the real world, meet real needs, and solve practical problems. So, whether it’s IoTeX, peaq, Solana, or other EVM platforms, it doesn’t matter which one we choose, as long as we are familiar with it. Additionally, in the early stages of a project, on-chain liquidity may be an important factor. This could influence our choice of which ecosystem to launch tokens and mainnets in, as it requires the ecosystem to provide substantial liquidity support. So from this perspective, Solana may have an advantage.

Future Outlook for DePIN (00:23:23 - 00:25:10)

Dylan is optimistic about the future of DePIN, predicting that there will be greater development next year, especially with the further growth of energy-related projects after they launch their mainnets.

Laser

This is just my personal opinion. I know it might be a bit biased towards our side. What are your thoughts? Is there anything else you would like to share before we wrap up?

Dylan

Yes, overall, as we discussed, I believe DePIN is one of the most exciting segments in the crypto space. It is addressing real problems, which is rare in the crypto field. We are seeing many phenomena that have not appeared in the crypto industry before, such as very strong infrastructure and founders with Web2 backgrounds joining the DePIN field, hoping to solve long-standing issues in their industries through DePIN, issues that traditional methods cannot address. This makes me very optimistic about DePIN. I believe what is being built now are real businesses. For example, Glow, an energy-related project, has already achieved seven-figure revenue. Helium has reached eight-figure revenue, and Geodnet has also achieved seven-figure revenue. We are starting to see on-chain revenue in DePIN, which has been a rare phenomenon in the crypto industry, except for a few areas.

I think next year will be a very important year for DePIN. We will see some protocols that already have a certain product-market fit continue to grow their revenue and business. Some of the most exciting projects, especially in the energy sector, will launch tokens on their mainnets and begin to truly scale and develop their ecosystems. This year we have already seen crazy growth, and I believe we will see even greater growth next year.

DePIN will become more well-known, not only within the crypto industry but also expanding beyond it. We will see more exciting ideas and innovations, as well as more excellent founders entering this field. I am very optimistic about the future.

Laser

Yes, I believe DePIN can become a bridge between Web2 and Web3, allowing more Web2 people to understand Web3 in a positive way, rather than through negative images like FTX.

Conclusion and Guest Information (00:25:10 - 00:26:23)

The two summarized the conversation, with Dylan mentioning that his research can be found on Messari or Twitter, and previewing an upcoming report on DePIN energy.

Laser

Alright, let’s wrap it up here. Good night!

Dylan

Okay, thank you for inviting me to participate in this interview.

You can find my research on Messari or follow me on Twitter, my username is @DylanBane. I will soon release a report on DePIN energy, so if you are interested in DePIN, don’t miss it.

Laser

Yes, I believe Dylan is one of the best researchers in the DePIN field. If you are interested in DePIN, be sure to follow Dylan on Twitter, as he has a lot of excellent information on investing in DePIN. Thank you very much for your participation today!

Dylan

Of course, thank you for inviting me!

免责声明：本文章仅代表作者个人观点，不代表本平台的立场和观点。本文章仅供信息分享，不构成对任何人的任何投资建议。用户与作者之间的任何争议，与本平台无关。如网页中刊载的文章或图片涉及侵权，请提供相关的权利证明和身份证明发送邮件到support@aicoin.com，本平台相关工作人员将会进行核查。