Original Interview: The Thread Guy;
Guest: Benjels, Co-founder of pump.science, member of molecule;
Original Compilation: zhouzhou, BlockBeats
Editor’s Note: In this interview, we invited Benjels, co-founder of pump.science, who brought significant attention to DeSci with the support of CZ and Vitalik at an event in Bangkok. The discussion focused on the innovations brought by DeSci and its future development direction, mentioning the practical significance of raising experimental funds through token trading to promote advancements in medical and longevity technologies. Benjels also shared new Alpha information, indicating that pump.science will launch nearly 20 new experimental tokens around Christmas.
The following is the original content (reorganized for better readability):
About Pump.Science
Thread Guy: Can you briefly introduce yourself and this project (pump.science)?
Benjels: I am a scientist and also a "retail investor." What frustrates me is that there hasn't been a way to balance both identities in the market. For example, you can trade stocks of biotech companies, but their data release cycles can take months, lacking the real-time updates and continuous speculation. Sports betting is different; you can place bets in real-time based on game dynamics. However, there isn't a similar model in the scientific field, so we wanted to create a "game" for science.
Thread Guy: Sounds interesting. How does it work specifically?
Benjels: Specifically, our team initially created NFTs for compounds, but later realized that people are actually more interested in "fungible tokens." The appeal of NFTs is limited; most people prefer to own a part of the entire asset. So we shifted to tokenizing the intellectual property of drug compounds.
Thread Guy: Is it about breaking down intellectual property into tokenized forms on-chain?
Benjels: Exactly. We represent the intellectual property of a certain compound in the form of tokens that can be traded. Instead of having to buy all the drugs of a biotech company, you can now choose to invest in a single drug.
Thread Guy: Why has no one done this before?
Benjels: Mainly because blockchain and crypto technology are relatively new, and the scientific community usually progresses slowly. Additionally, this involves complex legal issues, and we spent a lot of money hiring lawyers to ensure everything is legal.
Thread Guy: Where do you buy the intellectual property of these drugs?
Benjels: You need to contact the pharmaceutical companies directly to inquire if you can buy the intellectual property, which then involves lawyers and costs tens of thousands of dollars, making it very expensive because legal issues require lawyer involvement. What we are doing now is as simple as sending a token. Instead of writing complex contracts for IP licensing, our solution is to send a token directly, which is our understanding of the licensing method.
Thread Guy: But hypothetically, could you buy the intellectual property of nicotine under certain circumstances?
Benjels: Nicotine occurs naturally and cannot be patented. However, if you combine nicotine with other substances, like mixing it with caffeine, that combination can be patented. What we do is tokenize these patents or data and then test their effectiveness.
In simple terms, you can think of it this way: for longevity, we will test the effects of compounds on animals. One area that particularly interests me is "nootropics," which are essentially anything that can help the brain function more efficiently. For example, nicotine is a nootropic, caffeine is too, and there are many similar compounds that can help enhance brain function. We can also study through animal testing, such as verifying whether a certain substance can help rodents think better through different rodent experiments.
Overall, research like nootropics is something we can get involved in, but currently, "longevity" is the easiest field to study because everyone ages, and the outcome of "living or dying" is the easiest to understand. Therefore, we can use this data to attract investors.
Thread Guy: So the process you described sounds like it requires overcoming significant institutional barriers, and then it ends up being launched on Pump.fun. Tell us about that process.
Benjels: We launched two tokens, Rif (Rifampicin) and Uro (Urolithin). At one point, Rif had a market cap close to $2.5 million. Overall, the trading volume of these tokens has exceeded $1 billion since their launch. The compounds behind these tokens can be used to develop supplements, and in the future, profits can be made through sales or patent licensing. To attract more investors, we need to develop a set of data to prove the effectiveness of these compounds, such as significantly extending lifespan in animal tests.
When will new coins be released after RIF and URO?
Thread Guy: You already have two tokens, so when do you decide to launch the next one? How should we seize the next early opportunity? Or should we buy existing tokens? What are your thoughts on this?
Benjels: The new tokens may launch around Christmas. The first token is called Rif, so we will hold a "Rif Christmas." We plan to release 1 to 2 tokens daily for about 10 days. One thing to understand is that we are limited by real-world constraints. The laboratory resources we collaborate with are limited, such as the number of equipment and experimental animals. If we opened it up completely like Pump.fun and allowed everyone to submit experimental requests, our experimental capacity would fall far behind. So initially, we need to operate on a small scale. The goal is to gradually scale up, eventually allowing anyone to submit experiments, creating a frenzy like Pump.fun.
However, we will start with about 20 tokens, gradually showcasing their development paths, including tokens like Rif and Uro, ultimately hoping to advance to human testing stages and even develop a product market where these different supplements can be sold. As for how to seize early opportunities, I can reveal some "insider" information: we may launch 20 tokens during the Christmas period.
Thread Guy: I think most token enthusiasts usually believe the first token will be the most valuable. But the mechanism you described seems more like "survival of the fittest," seeing which drug performs best. Do you think this dynamic will change? For those who want to get involved and learn more about DeSci projects, do you have any advice or guidance?
Benjels: I would suggest paying attention to some metrics; one of the coolest aspects of science is that data is generated in real-time. Although it sounds a bit cumbersome, the compounds we submit already exist, and you can look up relevant information online, possibly even related scientific papers. Our goal is to turn geeks into scientists while also transforming scientists into geeks.
What makes this project special is its close connection to the real world; it’s not just a "meme," these could be potential longevity drugs. You can learn about these compounds online, and we will also generate relevant data to provide early indicators for assessing their effectiveness. For example, the two experiments we are currently conducting are about fruit flies. We will not only record whether the fruit flies are alive or dead but also monitor their speed and distance of movement.
Additionally, our goal is to combine the current AI craze to create an AI bot that trades based on this data. Whether it's humans or AI trading, we don't mind. We realize that the future may be an AI-dominated trading era, especially in the scientific field. You can develop your own AI agent to trade using the data we provide for you. This is our vision for the future, especially in science, where this approach is almost impossible to achieve in the real world, so we must "gamify" the process.
Thread Guy: If there are currently two tokens and later there will be 20 tokens, will the best-performing tokens be related to the best testing results?
Benjels: I won't comment directly on prices, but the market will determine the results. However, it can be said that experimental data may indeed impact the performance of the tokens.
How to monetize drug IP?
Thread Guy: Do you plan to sell these drugs to pharmaceutical companies?
Benjels: No, we will sell directly to consumers while providing clear data to support their effectiveness. When you buy current supplements, it's hard to know if they are useful for you or what specific effects they have. Because there isn't a dedicated venue to test the effects of these supplements one by one.
We are funding research through gamification and turning this data into part of our marketing, such as saying, "This supplement extended the lifespan of fruit flies by 50%, and it also made them run faster and travel further." Currently, no one can present similar research or conclusions. We hope to transform speculative behavior into research funding while producing products that can genuinely extend lifespan.
Thread Guy: Considering you have been working in this field for two years, can you talk about how you got started? What is your team like?
Benjels: I have been working in the DeSci field for two years, and the Pump Science project was launched two weeks ago before the Breakpoint conference. We launched two tokens during the conference and have been working hard to develop this project since then.
Thread Guy: Did anyone express skepticism about your project? Especially when you first mentioned "science," what was the reaction?
Benjels: At first, everyone thought it was quite unreliable. When it comes to "science," people often think of boring experiments and rigid things. But we want to make science no longer seem dull; you know many people found science classes boring in high school, and we hope to change that perception.
Imagine directing the crazy drive of Degens (crypto enthusiasts) towards science, allowing these individuals to participate in interesting experiments that ultimately help us extend our lifespan. This is the core of our project. It’s actually a theory of incentives similar to Polymarket: as long as the right incentives are set, people will find the right answers.
Thread Guy: The concept of "Polymarket" that you mentioned is indeed interesting; using incentive mechanisms to find the right answers and applying this mechanism to science is a truly crazy idea. This is also a significant signal; this could be the path that the next "Elon" is taking!
Benjels: I think we want to bring real longevity experts into this project and impress them with the data we generate. But we don’t want to start by saying, "Look at this crazy casino speculation game," because they would just turn away.
Most of the people I admire are in the longevity field, and we will use research data to engage them and get their attention. At that point, they will be curious, "Who funded these experiments?" Then we will tell them it’s the speculative market, and this research method is unprecedented.
Thread Guy: Will this data be used by other researchers? Or is it exclusive?
Benjels: Currently, this data is generated exclusively by us, but that is precisely the pain point in the longevity field. The FDA does not consider aging a disease. If you want to develop a drug, it must target diseases like cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc., because those are considered "diagnoses."
But aging is not viewed as a disease or diagnosis, so you cannot develop a drug solely for extending lifespan. This leads to the public market basically not funding this type of research, and institutions like the NIH will not invest in this area either. VCs also won’t fund it because insurance does not cover the costs of supplements; only drugs for diseases can be covered by insurance. So, the sources of research funding are limited.
I think the deeper you go into the healthcare field, the more you see the truth; it’s like "The Matrix," no one is here to help you stay healthy. Everyone wants you to get sick and then give you a super expensive drug to cure you, which is really a bit scary.
But this is precisely the opportunity for change: we can fund research ourselves instead of relying on VCs or the government. This funding could come from random "speculators."
Thread Guy: Obviously, I see a lot of value in coins, and I do hope there’s a channel for me to invest in these indices, or if there’s a place to concentrate investments, whether it’s something like a "DAO" or similar.
Benjels: I’m going to share some insider information; last Wednesday, I had dinner with Shaw and Bao, and they plan to create a DAO fund. Although the details are not finalized yet, we are making progress, and there may be actions soon. We will announce it on Twitter. However, there’s a problem: we don’t want to create a market and fund the tokens in the market at the same time, as that would look too problematic, so we are looking for an external team to operate this fund.
Thread Guy: So how do you submit a drug? For example, can Thread Guy submit a compound?
Benjels: Of course! If you have an idea, you can submit an application on our website. However, currently, about 90% of the submissions involve illegal or controlled substances, such as THC and other drugs. Unfortunately, due to laboratory licensing requirements, we cannot handle these compounds.
Thread Guy: What kind of projects can be submitted? Is there really no research left to be done in the world?
Benjels: You might think that all research has been completed, but it hasn’t. The core of science is to explore questions that have not yet been studied and to find answers. That’s the meaning of science: to identify the important questions that drive human progress.
So, our current idea is that we only have a relatively simple form; you just need to submit your idea on it, and the form is available on our website. If you go to the pump.science website, it basically says "Submit a New Experiment," and you can submit anything you want. We are collecting good ideas and bringing these people in, and they become developers, what we call "drug developers."
They will submit experiments and own the intellectual property. So in the short term, we will keep operations small because we have certain limitations on the number of experiments. But the ultimate goal is to make it like pump.fun; when the tokens reach a certain market cap, we will initiate these experiments, and we will be responsible for all operations. For example, transaction fees will be used to fund research, and this funding will be sent to laboratories for research. Ultimately, experiments will progress from worms, fruit flies, and mice to human testing, and finally, we will be able to launch products.
Thread Guy: How do you get approval to sell these drugs?
Benjels: It depends on which country you are in; each country has different regulatory processes. Basically, where you manufacture the drug, you must have a certification system like GMP. GMP stands for "Good Manufacturing Practice," similar to how the FDA inspects manufacturing sites to see if they are compliant and have complete documentation. We won’t do this ourselves; we will outsource it to professionals.
Thread Guy: Is this process difficult? Does it take many years?
Benjels: Yes, this process is quite complex and expensive, but we won’t handle this part; we will leave it to professionals. We will focus on building the token and data components, managing the data flow for these experiments.
New Opportunities in the DeSci Field
Thread Guy: I found many different names related to Bio while searching; what is that?
Benjels: Binance invested in Bio, which is basically a DAO composed of multiple DAOs, each focusing on research in different fields. For example, VitaDao focuses on longevity research, and HairDao focuses on hair loss research. You see, there is almost no funding in the hair loss field, so a group of cryptocurrency investors facing hair loss issues, who also have a lot of cryptocurrency, want to create their own hair loss medication.
The existing drugs on the market (like Rogaine and Finasteride) have average effectiveness. So, HairDAO is currently doing very well, their token price is also high, and they are developing multiple drugs. You should check them out; they are truly industry leaders.
Additionally, there’s a DAO focused on women’s health, a DAO focused on cryotherapy, and so on, all in research areas that have not received funding but have a lot of public interest, so they started these DAOs to fund related research. We are very optimistic about the longevity field.
Binance invested in Bio, which is an index token across all these DAO tokens. If you think DeSci has great prospects but are not interested in hair loss or longevity, you can choose to invest in the Bio token, as Bio is essentially a liquidity token for these tokens. I hope this explanation helps you understand.
Thread Guy: What is the focus in the longevity field?
Benjels: I think the core is to look at the spending on healthcare in the U.S. Healthcare spending in the U.S. accounts for 20% of GDP, which is enormous. But if you look at lifespan, our lifespan is actually declining. We are spending more money but getting shorter lifespans.
So the question arises: why is this happening? You will realize that the entire healthcare system is not designed to help you live longer but to extract as much money from you as possible. This is the core of longevity theory. If you truly care about health or want to live longer, then we must do this ourselves. So this is the foothold in the longevity field.
But we also believe that besides longevity, there are many other areas that can be explored. We are starting with longevity because it is the largest market; after all, everyone cares about their lifespan.
Additionally, we are very excited about biohacking. This includes not only research on new drugs (nurotropics) but also the large biohacking community on Reddit, where people experiment with various chemicals to see if different substances can improve their performance or health. You know, there are also methods like cold water therapy, where people are trying these extreme challenges.
Many people have indeed tried to enhance their physical performance through biohacking. Now, besides those fitness enthusiasts who want to get stronger through exercise, there are also many people focusing on triathlons and other projects, wanting to improve their running speed. This involves a category called "performance-enhancing drugs" (PEDs), but research in this area is still very limited. So many people start self-experimenting, and some even look for drugs from China to test on themselves. Therefore, our idea is that before we start self-experimenting, we should conduct some animal experiments.
Thread Guy: Would you recommend some private "nurotropics" products?
Benjels: Yes, my favorites are Methylene Blue, which is not a "drug," and nicotine lozenges, which work very well, as well as Modafinil, which is also an excellent choice.
Thread Guy: What about Lion's Mane?
Benjels: Lion's Mane is a mushroom that helps with neuron regeneration, which is beneficial for brain cells. So it’s great, but you might not feel the effects immediately; the other drugs I mentioned will have more noticeable effects.
Thread Guy: When will you open a drug store on the Pump.Science website?
Benjels: I actually think it’s a bit excessive that this hasn’t happened yet. We expect to launch the store around the first quarter. Although everyone is quite averse to roadmaps, this is a real progress. We are not the kind of internet company that can innovate casually; we are doing tangible operations. We are working with some actual manufacturers to establish a supply chain while building an e-commerce platform. We also plan to introduce a token mechanism, where tokens will be repurchased and burned when products are sold, creating token deflation and thereby increasing the price.
Thread Guy: Suppose you launch a drug, like nicotine (even though we can't do that right now). If I buy a large amount of it, causing the price to skyrocket, and then sales are booming, should token holders expect the token price to rise because the intellectual property is now more valuable, or because of the buyback and burn mechanism? How does this process work?
Benjels: This question is indeed a bit complex, and lawyers usually advise me to be careful with my words. I will try to explain cautiously. If token holders vote to approve a buyback and burn, then when the product is sold, the profits generated will be used to buy back and burn tokens, creating a deflationary effect, which will increase the token price. So, if enough token holders vote in favor of this plan, the buyback and burn mechanism will come into effect. This way, the value of the token can gradually increase. It’s important to note that this mechanism cannot be set up from the start, but if decisions are made through group voting, it can help avoid some legal risks.
Thread Guy: If I want to learn about the 20 new drugs you are going to release, how can I find the relevant research materials? For example, if I want to know the specific information about these 20 drugs, how can I find the related research and data?
Benjels: We will disclose their identities before the drugs are released, so you can do some research in advance. However, while we plan to release about 20 drugs, we are still in the process of obtaining data from the laboratories. So, it’s uncertain whether all these drugs will be effective. However, we will release information about the compounds that are about to be tested and then start opening a curve mechanism similar to "Pump.fun," where tokens begin trading. Once the market cap reaches the target, the experiments will be initiated.
Thread Guy: Do you think I should try to launch a "Thread Guy" themed drug, or should I research how to submit a drug?
Benjels: Of course, you can try! Even if you only have the idea of nicotine, you can start from there.
Thread Guy: Can you give us some specific advice on how to maximize the benefits from this opportunity? What are the next steps and points worth paying attention to?
Benjels: I can introduce Pump Science because I am currently working on this project. I think the most important point is that everyone is very fascinated by AI right now. Indeed, AI is cool; it can interact with automated systems and even trade.
But to be honest, science is the driving force behind social progress. Although it sounds a bit cliché, we live in a physical world, and technological innovation can change a lot, especially in the healthcare industry. When people look at cryptocurrency, they often think it’s just gambling, but we can truly change everything, especially in large fields like medicine.
Thread Guy: How do scientists view this?
Benjels: Scientists have very different opinions. Some scientists are very excited about this because we have funded many researchers who are thrilled with this funding, as it might be something they could never obtain through traditional channels.
On the other hand, some scientists are skeptical because cryptocurrency has a certain stigma in their eyes. So we need to try to change this perception, with the goal of producing real research results and developing meaningful products. It would be great if the scientific community is willing to accept it; if not, that’s okay too. However, I believe attitudes are slowly changing.
Thread Guy: You mentioned that many "Trap Science" people find you suspicious. So how can I determine whether you or other DeSci platforms are suspicious?
Benjels: I suggest you check the on-chain transaction records to see how the funds are flowing. Are the funds really being invested in scientific research, rather than wasted elsewhere? You can also keep an eye on the projects you care about and see how they are executing.
Nowadays, people are less focused on past plans and more concerned with "What have you done today?" For this cycle, I think everyone should maintain high expectations for all projects. If a platform is always hiding its progress, it likely has issues. If we conduct experiments transparently and showcase them in real-time, it shows that we are serious about our work and have invested funds. Our current approach is to publicly display the progress of all experiments to ensure that the funds are genuinely used for research.
Thread Guy: With so many new concepts happening simultaneously in the DeSci field, what should people be most concerned about?
Benjels: If you care about living longer and not dying, projects like Brian Johnson’s are worth looking into. If you truly hope to live longer, you must take action yourself. Your doctor won’t come to save you, and the hospital won’t save you. They will cure your diseases after you’ve paid a hefty fee, but they won’t help you prevent them.
It’s like this: if you enjoy living and want to continue living tomorrow, and still find life interesting at 80, then you need to make some changes. If you want that choice, we need to make changes. So, we will do our best, but we need everyone’s help. If you just want to live to 80 and then pass away peacefully, that’s fine too; but we are doing this for those who want to "live forever."
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