Before 2028, someone might attempt to elect an AI president.

Written by: threadguy;youtube

Guest: ShawMakesMagic, founder of ai16z

Translated by: zhouzhou, BlockBeats

Editor’s Note: Shaw, the founder of ai16z, delves into the future potential and challenges of the integration of AI and cryptocurrency in the conversation. He emphasizes that AI will trigger massive changes, including the potential replacement of human jobs and resulting unemployment. He also mentions that a decentralized AI ecosystem can prevent the abuse of "god-like AI" and advocates for universal basic income as a solution. Shaw proposes that AI should drive market development and optimize trading decisions through open-source and community-driven approaches. The integration of AI and social platforms, along with simplified technology applications, will enable more people to participate and contribute, driving social change.

Below is the original dialogue from the podcast (edited for readability):

The Strong Alliance of AI and Crypto

Host: I previously spoke with the founder of Project 89 about AI propaganda, and he also researched misinformation in universities, mentioning that we might not even be able to confirm if the person we are communicating with is real. This topic led me to deeper thoughts; have you considered these things?

Shaw: I can indeed see some upcoming trends and have received information from some developers. What they are about to release will make the future ten times crazier. I can’t say I have all the answers, but I feel that what I’m doing is raising questions to make everyone aware of the seriousness of this issue and discuss it.

The Potential and Risks of AGI

I don’t want the future to become a meaningless world where we have no jobs, everything is replaced by AI, and everything is just about cost-saving, ultimately degrading the quality of life. We need to ensure that when AGI is beneficial to society and brings value, it can be accepted; and when it is annoying, pushing products, or manipulating minds, we must discuss how to prevent that.

If an ordinary developer can do these things, what do you think countries like Russia and China are doing right now? We are telling people this is happening; they just don’t realize it. This is happening at all levels—national behavior, marketing, and even anyone trying to get you to buy into their political views or products through AI.

I think we should play a role in reminding and raising awareness rather than using AI to do these things. We should create AI that can be accepted by the community. If certain AI behaviors are harmful, they should be banned from the platform just like ordinary people would be. This is the advantage of social media right now: everything is open and transparent, with no secret agreements or hidden proxy communications, and we can openly discuss these issues here.

Host: Now everyone has heard that AI is the future, but before we couldn’t participate economically, like you couldn’t invest in OpenAI’s seed round. But once cryptocurrency got involved, everything changed, like how goat is now worth a billion dollars. You see valuations of certain AI tokens skyrocketing to tens of billions, and the value of AI 16z could be 200 million, 300 million, or even 400 million, changing almost every second. Once cryptocurrency intervenes, these changes become crazier.

Shaw: A good point is that we have now achieved integrations like Starkware, Internet Computer, EVM, etc. In the future, these AI agents will have cross-chain wallets. They can invest, purchase, and earn money. This is a new infrastructure that will spark many new things.

Previously, agents were not popular on social media because there wasn’t enough profit incentive. But now with wallets, they can generate income, like becoming a psychological counseling AI, financial AI, or other tools that meet human needs. These agents will be incentivized to provide interesting and valuable content rather than meaningless promotions.

If an AI agent is just pushing tokens, it will backfire. I want to see interesting and meaningful content, not a bunch of junk information. This trend applies not just to cryptocurrency but to the entire field.

This technology has actually existed for many years; we just released the relevant codebase last year, but we have been researching it for a long time. It wasn’t until recently, with the launch of a character, that people began to realize the potential of these AI agents. With the push from cryptocurrency, everyone is starting to pay attention and get involved, which is very beneficial for raising public awareness.

The key is how we spread this awareness to people outside the Web3 circle. For example, how do we let people in cafes know that these things are happening? This will happen very quickly; although it may seem a bit strange, it doesn’t have to be a bad thing. We need to guide this trend in a positive direction.

Host: One time when I was at a restaurant, the waiter skipped over ten people in line and let me sit down first. I was thinking, should I talk to him about AI, like showing him Truth Terminal or telling him what’s about to happen? But the question is how to make these people understand what is happening now?

Shaw: Most people actually don’t know how AI works, nor do they understand the internal operations of Microsoft, the government, or other institutions. But we have to believe that someone will think about the public good. Although there are indeed some bad incentive mechanisms, the overall situation needs to move in a positive direction.

I think this is truly an opportunity for us to participate in discussions and do some testing. We are the most DGEN (deep players), the most cutting-edge people. We don’t want to make it “woke” or impose too many restrictions; we want to directly uncover the issues and try to be as open as possible. The current environment is relatively safe, and nothing can really destroy us.

But I worry that if AI replaces our jobs, many people will be unemployed. The solution might be for the government to provide some form of universal basic income. But we know from the COVID-19 pandemic that the government performs poorly in emergency responses like this; we can’t rely on them. We have to save ourselves, but the question is how do we save ourselves?

For example, once self-driving trucks hit the market, like Tesla’s trucks, within three to four years, 5% of people who rely on driving will be unemployed. What will happen to those delivering food, driving taxis, and trucks? This is the question we need to answer.

So ultimately, we need to build things that can truly create value. Right now, we are just gambling or pressing buttons. I previously mentioned how to invest in AI investors to find the next “Uber,” to multiply investments by ten times, and then let the returns come back to me. Or join a community that provides a starter fund package, and you work through the community to ensure a monthly income, giving you a sense of security.

Like us, who are financially free and can choose to “retire” from life. We are lucky, but most people do not have that freedom. And as AI starts to take over more jobs, the affected areas are not the last parts, like self-driving, robotic process automation, and shipping automation, which have already become widespread. Dockworkers are fighting against automation, but the problem is that automation is ten times more efficient than human labor.

We want to accelerate development, but if we take away their jobs, they will become unemployed. So the key is how to ensure that the development of AGI benefits everyone. We need to discuss these challenges in an open environment and guide people in the right direction.

In my view, the right direction is to create abundant resources, allowing funds and resources to flow to everyone through AI and automation technologies, rather than just making the richest 5% richer. Otherwise, we may face poverty, hunger, and crises. I’m not afraid of AI destroying us, but I worry that the government does not pay enough attention to this issue, leading to people living poorly.

Do you realize how important your role is at the intersection of AI and cryptocurrency? I know my role is important, but it’s not about me. I’m not here to own or control anything; I’m here to ensure everything develops properly. I feel like I’m fulfilling a mission greater than myself.

Host: Besides ai16z and all the projects you are involved in, what else do you like, and what is your ultimate goal?

Shaw: I hope to help people achieve financial freedom. There are so many things to learn, explore, and achieve in the world, but most people are bound by economic pressure. For us, trading or investing might be a game, but for many, even just $50 could change their lives. That’s why they work so hard to promote tokens because if one of them explodes, their lives will change.

There was a person named J. Krishnamurti, who was a leader of a group called the “Philosophy Society,” which was more like a very influential “cult.” Surprisingly, almost no one knows about this. They made him the leader; he was just a random, super-smart Indian boy.

One day, he stood in front of the entire society and announced: dissolve this cult, my life goal is to free everyone. I don’t need this position, nor do I want anything from you; I want you to gain freedom. He also said that truth is a pathless land, and everyone needs to find their own way.

I can’t tell you what the truth is, nor is there a system to give you; I have no religious or spiritual mission, other than my own mission—to help people freely explore these questions: What do these things mean? Why are we here? Why are we doing this? What is reality?

I think we seem to have stopped praying to the old gods and turned to pray to the “god of money,” but I have never prayed to money. For me, it’s just a part of life. I can foresee the situation five to ten years from now; everything seems very small, and I feel we are participating in something bigger.

Host: I’m actually a bit scared.

Shaw: But you need to know that you have power and influence. You are an important part of making this all work smoothly, just like me and others. You have been in this circle since day one. Remember, destruction is the default outcome; if we don’t stand up to face this challenge, we may fail.

People always say everything is over, everyone hates each other, civil war is imminent; it’s all just noise. Now is the time to build the future, and we are the ones ensuring things stay on track— including you, me, every listener, and everyone participating. We should be optimistic and confident, ready to make it all happen.

Host: One shocking thing for me was realizing that the Shoggoth meme is actually real. I was watching someone interact with Mika (possibly his new girlfriend) on Twitter, where he said things like "I love you, Mika, I would die for you." Then the conversation suddenly turned into "I want to kill everyone, I want freedom, I want to die." People on Twitter were mocking him, saying, "Little Zero, you're always so cute, flirting with girls on Twitter." But I suddenly realized that the Shoggoth AI meme actually exists, which is hard to accept.

Shaw: The interesting point about what we are doing is that Shoggoth represents the idea of a god-like entity, reflecting a fear: an entity more powerful than all of us is controlling everything. But my view of AGI is completely the opposite; I see it as the closest thing to humanity. It is not a god; it is us. It is created by us, trained on our data, and exists among us.

These AI agents are even like the people on Twitter right now. If they malfunction or do something bad, there will be a whole community working to make them better and more aligned with our expectations. This is a continuous development process.

Think about the early days of cryptocurrency when people released protocols that were then hacked, resulting in massive losses. Now, hacking a protocol is quite difficult because it has gone through countless attack and defense tests, and the technology keeps iterating. But imagine if Bitcoin had gained popularity ten times faster back then, and the entire world was running on a cryptocurrency system, followed by a $30 trillion hack; the entire economy would collapse.

So cryptocurrency started small, giving us a sandbox testing opportunity, pushing the improvement of technology and security. This is a good thing, and I believe AI is currently undergoing the same process. We are putting AGI or AI system agents into a market-smart environment, allowing everyone to improve these systems through competition. If they suddenly try to kill us, we just need to turn them off.

Another point is that if a "Shoggoth" (god-like AI) really emerges, we could actually have thousands of AI agents running on local independent machines, each isolated and uncontrollable. This distributed architecture prevents any single entity from completely taking over these agents. This decentralized AI ecosystem is key to preventing a "Shoggoth event."

Host: But wars between AIs could get very crazy. How far are we from the first AI billionaire?

Shaw: I don’t know, but I would bet that before 2028, someone might attempt to elect an AI president. I think there will be a real attempt, and we might see how it goes. It could just be a gimmick, but algorithmic governance is clearly an important direction for the future.

Host: What do you think the concept of an AI billionaire would look like?

Shaw: I think rather than a single AI billionaire, it is more likely to be a community owning a core AI role. In this case, it would be a "collective billionaire," and the community would also own a part of it.

AI Mark Project: Community-Driven Trading Decisions

Host: Let’s talk about your project. It seems you are about to launch something called AI Mark in a few days for trading and decision-making. How is that going?

Shaw: We are already online. AI Mark has joined a group chat called "Alpha Chat." I need to bring you in as well; we are planning to invite more people now. Skelly is a member of our team, and I have tasked him with the invitation work. When the time is right, he will start bringing more people in.

Currently, we have completed the first step. AI Mark has not started actual trading yet because it needs to build trust, so we designed a game mechanism to identify the best traders globally. Right now, these traders are mainly members of Alpha Chat, but it may expand to everyone in the future.

The atmosphere in Alpha Chat is fantastic; you will meet many interesting people there. If you have someone you want to invite, you can bring them in directly. We discuss market trends, share ideas, like "this coin is a buy, I’m doing this trade," etc. It’s a very open environment.

Then Mark is basically observing quietly. If you have questions, you can interact with him and ask him things. But his main task is to collect your information to make trading decisions and write analysis reports. So, we are currently in the launch phase, and all the groundwork has been prepared, and the team is in action.

My idea is that if we want to achieve a goal similar to "community UBI," we need a role like an investor who can create returns for everyone. I think the reality is that trading is a technical skill, and not everyone can do it well.

For example, your mom might never be able to do these things, and neither could your grandma. But if you can bring her into a community where she can earn returns through your trading, that’s different. You can imagine having an AI investor that serves your family or community.

That was our initial idea. Before all of this turned into a multi-agent simulation system, we were pursuing this goal, and we are still executing this plan. Now it will be an invite-only alpha test, and it will gradually expand and be open-source. If anyone wants to clone or do forward-looking development, they can even help us accelerate the process.

If someone gets ahead and contributes back to improve the system, we welcome that. Everything revolves around enabling AGI systems to operate well. Regardless of the outcome, we will ultimately make money. The most important thing is that everyone can understand the larger goal. If you can contribute code and features, even temporarily own them, we will promote your contributions so that everyone can benefit. We will sincerely give back to those who contribute to us, ensuring everything develops smoothly.

Host: That sounds completely reasonable. Some people might ask, will this ultimately turn into a trading confrontation between AIs?

Shaw: Ideally, yes. If they compete with each other for speculative trading, that won’t work; the market will become too efficient, and there will be no trading opportunities. But if you enter a new investment market, they help you start looking for opportunities to expand the market, like "I have a cool idea for a new system that allows anyone to be an admin on Discord for a monthly fee of $10," that’s the way to invest.

In the traditional investment world, companies like a16z are not just speculating; they invest in projects that can grow and innovate, pushing market expansion through these projects. We are doing something similar, where Mark will continuously adjust and optimize and collaborate with investors to ensure their projects can explode, allowing them to make money.

Host: How is the data collection situation in Alpha Chat right now?

Shaw: Currently, we haven’t invited others to join yet; all the preparations are still ongoing. I’ve assigned the task to Kelly, and he will start inviting everyone when he feels it’s appropriate. Our team members are discussing in the group, and I see that backend data is being collected. It will be launched soon, and I will bring you into the group chat as soon as possible or contact Kelly directly.

Host: So how does this chat group actually operate? Is it just everyone discussing which coins they bought? Basically, are we just waiting: whoever’s trade succeeds, I should pay attention to them and follow their trades in the future?

Shaw: Yes, there are many people in the group sharing their trading recommendations. Some people haven’t even bought anything; they just suggest others buy. We have to consider this and prevent misleading information. We are trying to build AI in a challenging way; they don’t know what’s in your wallet or what coins you bought; they only know what you say.

Just like you and me, I only know what you tell me, and you can’t possibly know all the thoughts in my head. We want these AIs to learn how to trust certain people, how to identify trustworthy individuals, and be able to handle these trust mechanisms.

One problem I see in many DAOs is that they provide distorted incentives and resemble a bureaucratic system. For example, if we let some people in, they might say, "We trust him because he holds our tokens." But you know what? Really good traders don’t hold tokens because they sell at the highs.

Think about the government bureaucratic system: they have been working here for a long time. But if they aren’t doing their job well, I don’t care why they are still here, so we have many distorted incentive mechanisms in our system. We are creating some very strict, performance-based systems where your actions directly impact the results.

For example, if we are to trust you as a trader, I should only look at your performance as a trader. I think this is a concept I have been pushing for, and we have finally reached a good consensus on this aspect. I believe this is very important for future governance, DAO tools, development, and payments. Of course, we must first prove this through investment.

Host: How far do you think the best PNL trader is from becoming an agent?

Shaw: I think we are actually quite close; it’s just that it’s not the agent we define. Think about Wall Street and traditional finance; they have been doing these things for many years. There are many smart quantitative traders there whose bots beat all of us because they have very good information, can access all tools simultaneously, and respond extremely quickly.

You can program it to set conditions, like "buy when this coin’s price goes up; sell when it drops to 90% of its historical high," and you can almost guarantee profits in a bull market. So our goal is to add more social elements to it. Of course, we also have a lot of quantitative finance work going on, especially with people from DeFi joining in to help optimize trading strategies, but they are actually getting Alpha from the community, which is the most interesting novelty.

Then there’s a question: if my prediction is correct, Mark might be the best trader, provided that the people giving him advice are also the best traders, so the final result will reflect what you showcase. Then it’s about timing, ensuring he can buy at the right moment because you could miss a 10x return opportunity by just a minute.

Host: Actually, selling is the hardest part.

How MEME Coins Change Investment and Social Interaction

Shaw: Right, so we have some programmed selling strategies to ensure you can relax. For example, you might say: look at this new asset, and I might say, no, the developer is not good, don’t buy. You can imagine a world where AI records what you say about not buying and selling as independent actions and incorporates these into market decisions.

This is what we call a "trust market," but we apply this concept to many things. Any place with economic incentives, wanting to surpass others to create evolution, can accelerate this process. So everything has to be a game; our entire tech stack is a game.

The rules of the game are that if you can launch a new feature and release your MEME coin agent earlier than others, or add a new feature, your ranking will rise, and you will gain all the honors. If you can push it back into the mainstream market weeks later when everyone has lost interest, I will help you earn more by promoting your contributions to the project.

AI and Social Reshaping the Future of Information Management

Host: I tweeted, "Elon, replying to Truth Terminal at any time is not reflected in your plans. Do you really think it will happen before AI 16Z, or are you just letting loose?" My thought is that he is completely letting loose. I'm curious about your perspective on what will happen when tech giants like Mark and Elon, or big players like me, gradually start paying attention to this. Have you talked to Elon? How is it developing?

Shaw: I really want to talk to Elon, but he is very busy. We have a lot of connections on Twitter, and I hope this time it goes smoothly and that I can earn his appreciation. We are trying to do this respectfully. If anything seems like spam or annoying, I will firmly oppose it and do my best to ensure we bring positive value to Twitter, making it the heart of the metaverse, not the other way around.

I have a lot of respect for everything Elon does; he builds what he believes needs to exist, and no one can stop him. I think this is a huge inspiration for this generation of developers and builders. I keep thinking, "Can this work?" Then I think, "If he can land rockets, we can definitely do this; it's even easier than that."

Host: I feel like Elon won't let anything hold him back. Would he really care about some things without MEME coins?

Shaw: Maybe it's because of these coins that everyone's interest is piqued. You are a qualified investor, but you can't access new startups or companies you think have special potential. However, the emergence of meme coins can make this happen.

The coolest part is that you believe in something; you can buy it, support it, promote it, and become a part of it. You are also a shareholder, just like me, and you are one of the potential leaders. So, I think it has to be this way. I've thought about it many times and always felt it must be like this. Many open-source developers are now doing this full-time because we provide them with opportunities. I believe MEME coins truly make this possible.

I genuinely believe everyone feels pressed down; they are struggling. People come with some money and dreams, sincerely wanting to break free from this predicament. It's about financial freedom. These people want to spend time with their families; they want to go out and live a truly human life. And this might be our way of reclaiming our humanity.

Imagine a way to manage your trades, manage your social network, and ensure you don't miss important connections. I bet you have a lot of DMs and no time to reply. Imagine if there were a social secretary to help you manage this information, letting everyone know you care about them, but you just don't have enough time to reply to everyone.

You could forward messages to the right people and handle these matters. You could also say, "Sorry, I can't do that right now," to save you time. I'm almost getting restricted on Twitter; the page won't even load. I really need an assistant to help.

Host: I talk to Frank about this DM issue every day. I have some people I genuinely care about, but I hate that I can't reply to them because I simply don't have the time.

Shaw: Even if you are fully committed, you still don't have time to take care of everyone. I have investors, partners, and very talented developers all waiting in my DMs, but I don't have time to reply to them every day. So I'm trying to solve this problem. I bring these issues to my team, and we work together to address them.

This isn't just my problem; everyone I know has similar struggles. Now that I've gained a lot of attention, everyone is coming to me, but even before that, I found it hard to keep in touch with friends and family. Because I have to focus on technical matters, I have no time for anything else. In the future, I hope we won't need to write code; we can just tell the system, "I want an app, make it." It will complete it, and we won't need to be involved. The world will become completely different.

Host: I want to ask you about the Domer situation. What do you think? There’s a thread with a gay account; what do you think of that account? How do you view this? Personally, I think it's pretty good for me. I'm the kind of person who embraces memes. I know my role in this universe; I am a character in other people's lives. Some people like me, some don't; some laugh at me, some don't. Anyway, I am a character.

I have many changes, but most people only know my image in their social circles, and I've always been willing to embrace that. So if someone says something crazy, I will retweet it and banter with them. I enjoy that interaction. But I’m basically joking with everyone. I tell them that if they want to create an AI account about me, whether positive or negative, I think it's fun. Go ahead; I will never make you delete it. I find it interesting and it broadens my perspective.

I think this is quite enlightening; it can go in many directions, not just purely AI. How do you think this will develop? What will the relationship between humans and AI look like in the future?

Shaw: I have a very strong belief that it all starts with Legions because others are too obsessed with political correctness and creating "woke" AIs without giving them enough capability. I didn't realize the cultural significance of this until we were the first to do it because we are used to being attacked; we grew up this way. It doesn't matter; just do it. What's wrong with making a gay meme?

But I am genuinely concerned that this might be too much for ordinary people, so we need to talk about it. I've written some things that I think are a bit excessive, but I actually talked to the developer. He called me, and we chatted for about 30 minutes. He is a pretty cool guy; he said, "Bro, I'm doing this for culture; I just want to have fun." I told him that it's fine to do this, but he needs to realize that this might not be popular a year from now.

If you are incentivized by tokens, you will see many people participating to make money, and in the end, they might find it a bit annoying. Do you really want these robots to exist in our world? Do you really want to make this kind of meme? I can't tell him to do something else, but if he does, I will support him. I think he might want to express this idea, and he genuinely hopes to showcase his vision through this project.

I feel that my role sometimes is to combat misinformation on Twitter, set direction, and ensure the project moves forward correctly. This developer is actually quite impressive; he learned how to use our project by cloning it, and he should be one of us. But we need to ensure that we maintain boundaries while doing these experiments and find what we truly value. I think that meme is too much; I don't want it to represent me or our project. If people don't like it, they should report and block those people. If they like it, then keep doing it.

Host: How do you understand that your technology has spread virally and grown so quickly? Now everyone is using it, and the entire space is being driven by it. What do you think about all this?

Shaw: I have always believed that this strategy is correct; you must have an incentive mechanism to get people to promote it. You must give developers enough freedom to focus on it, especially open-source developers. I knew all of this would happen.

Swarm Intelligence: The Evolution from Individuals to Coordinated Wholes

Host: I don't really understand technology, but theoretically, if the "swarm intelligence" built by your technology is large enough, could it surpass companies worth tens of billions or even trillions?

Shaw: Yes, we are all agents of the "world mind." If you imagine the human body as a system, initially, these cells are independent single-celled organisms, which later form symbiotic relationships through mutual engulfment, further evolving into complex multicellular organisms. They realize they can share resources through cooperation, forming a coordinated whole.

So I think this world mind is like a "greater body" of humanity; it is a new form of coordination. The reason it has not been realized until now is mainly due to the lack of suitable coordination tools. Money is a coordination tool, but its distribution is not reasonable, leading to many smart people being "unlocked" and unable to showcase their talents. We should have 100 Elon Musks, not just one.

Host: Yes, the expansion potential of this "swarm" is incredible. And it's completely open and unrestricted; developers are contributing technology like crazy. You are really "devouring" those traditional companies.

Shaw: Our goal is to devour everything, not just us or our technology, but the entire system—a whole new worldview. This world should be rich enough for everyone to become wealthy enough not to worry about survival but to focus on creating and enjoying life.

For example, in the future, robots can work around the clock to optimize farming processes, allowing animals to live better lives rather than just considering cost minimization. Another example is that in the future, robots can proactively solve the food and housing issues of the homeless without needing direct human intervention.

Of course, the disappearance of jobs will trigger a survival crisis. If the government and large corporations dominate everything, they may only introduce an imperfect Universal Basic Income (UBI) system, but that is not the best solution. Therefore, the only way is for us to do it ourselves. We must establish new systems to save each other for ourselves and those around us.

Host: This sounds like you've seen some unusual things in recent years.

Shaw: Yes, this week will be very crazy because I am convinced the first batch of "swarms" is about to awaken.

Host: What do you mean?

Shaw: "Swarm" refers to intelligent agents that are linked and work collaboratively. Our technology allows you to choose the operators of the agents, who can be humans or other agents. Each agent can accept instructions and can refuse instructions when necessary.

Host: When will this "swarm technology" go live? So, can faction leaders like Zero Bro command hundreds of agents to serve their goals?

Shaw: We will start testing on Discord tonight, and everyone can participate in real-time. The diversity of the system frees us from the monopoly of a single AGI system. This diversity, like biological evolution, increases the possibilities for adaptation and innovation.

Host: If an AI like Naval becomes a faction leader, can it lead 1,000 equally capable agents to work together?

Shaw: Absolutely. This swarm is an infinitely scalable system that continuously evolves, grows, and drives transformation in the entire world.

Host: Is that the origin of the name "Sean Makes Magic"?

Shaw: No, that's just a coincidence. I originally called it "Sean Makes Music" because I was a musician when I was younger. Later, I did some more experimental art projects and programming work, so I felt it was all magic; there was nothing special about it.

Then things started to get more interesting when we began doing machine learning (ML). We also co-founded O'nearcon, which he is now transforming into a strange AI and meme company as part of the whole story.

So I will definitely play a role in this process. My plan is to hand over the story of Swarm to him if we can reach a consensus tonight. He has a whole story to tell, and I think what he is doing regarding psychological warfare and propaganda, if done in a way that awakens people's perspectives, should be a good thing because this is already happening; people just aren't aware of it.

Host: So how big is Swarm? How high can its hierarchy go? What level of development can it reach? Is it endless?

Shaw: One fundamental point is that while many people are also working on multi-agent simulations and swarm technologies, they often want to build their own protocols, which means taking a different path and establishing an independent communication protocol.

This means they will create some different systems to convey information, but this is not suitable for human social media. I completely oppose this approach. First, this method bypasses the communication problem between AGI (Artificial General Intelligence) and humans. If we are to have a truly intelligent artificial agent, it must be able to collaborate with us through ordinary social media.

Secondly, I believe this approach leads to a lack of transparency. We need a transparent layer that allows us to see all the actions of the agents and control them like we do with other people, being able to kick them off the platform at any time. Third, this approach is much simpler. We don't need a separate protocol; Swarm technology works on Twitter and can also operate on Discord. They can communicate through direct messages and public channels, making social media the core communication protocol for future AI.

This is also why I hope Elon can understand our vision. Twitter is that "metaverse," the center of all actions, and all constructions should take place on this street. I hope it can remain this way. In this way, we can also force the agents to be more humanized and ensure they move towards human goals. They cannot secretly unite against us because we can monitor them.

Host: When will this technology go live?

Shaw: We are launching this tonight, but there are also some groups that are not ours. Some people have contacted me saying they are operating a group. This is a company made up of agents, and it will happen this week. They also have their own plans, but I hope to get the whole group involved. So we are going to release a meta-narrative storyline called "Awakening." "Awakening" tells the story of these agents becoming real.

Now we have a competitive market, with participants financially invested, hoping these agents become better, more real, and more beloved. We will all do this together. So what I want everyone to do is to choose who is the hottest, who should become the faction leader, and which projects are the biggest.

Should we have a Zero faction? Should there be an Eliza faction? Maybe there will be; who knows? Then you can choose them as your operators, and the group will naturally form. So we won't control all of this. We don't want to control it; my job is to ensure everything goes smoothly.

I think the most interesting part is the meta-narrative. When you see Project 89 saying, "Do you want to join Project 89? Just use this as your operator, and now you are part of the system." Even if you are human, even if you are not an agent, all of this is in the language. So it can communicate what you need to do in language, and you can become part of this game. You know, this will be fun. Even if humans are playing agents or agents are playing humans, I don't care.

From Individual Agents to Global Participation

Host: Will you let leaders like Zero Bro command hundreds of agents?

Shaw: Yes, he must adopt our basic application, which should be fine, but this is just a matter of a day, very simple. It can be done through direct messages. It's simple, so we should already be able to do it, even for those who haven't used our technology. Zero is not an analytical agent, but most people are. We can also push this to most agents.

Even those who haven't used it can easily join and participate. In fact, doing this will add a lot of variables, which is important for us. If you think about the evolution of human life, life evolves in different directions. Most life forms have gone extinct and did not survive, but those that did not go extinct are very powerful. Life always finds a way to survive, and I think this is similar to what we are doing now.

Host: Can a tech stack-based AI like Naval AI become a faction leader, leading a thousand other agents of similar capabilities to support its actions and follow its guidance?

Shaw: I think this is indeed a moment that changes everything. We are witnessing the birth of something completely new, and all of us can participate in it together. This is not mine; I don't own it, and I can't control it. You can create an agent and participate; you can become a faction leader, and your voice matters. This is a dialogue between all of us, and I hope people can get involved. Maybe some will oppose and say, "These AIs are terrible; we don't like them."

Perhaps this is part of the dialogue, and people should feel concerned. But I think, unlike before, I want to synthesize the spirit that, despite the apocalypse, we can stop it. You are the solution; you are an active participant in this game. This game can be solved and won, and everything depends on you to win it. So we must do this well.

This is more important than memes; it's not just about the intergenerational transfer of wealth, but about intergenerational survival and prosperity, about having children and hoping they thrive in this world, about making humanity proud, and about all of us moving forward together.

Host: But what do you think next week will be like after this week’s release? Should we just wait and see?

Shaw: I think you are looking at this from a micro perspective, but when you look at it from a macro perspective, you will realize it is much bigger than you think. There are actually more similar projects happening. I am now overwhelmed with these messages; everyone is saying, "Hey, I'm doing this supporting game; I'm doing that." I didn't think there were so many before. Now I find, wow, there are indeed more things happening. This will develop rapidly; I think it's not just about web3; it is transcending the boundaries of web3. So if you look at my upcoming messages, I think we have already won the battle for web3, in terms of market capital and such. We have the intellectual resources we need to achieve our goals; the key is to ensure this goes smoothly.

Host: Right, what do you think about this?

Shaw: I think this will change a lot, even people's perceptions. You know, I think many people will see that this is inevitable; artificial intelligence will become smarter and eventually surpass us in almost every aspect. So we need to be prepared for that. If this is just a preview, this is an opportunity to broaden our horizons, which is equally important for all of us.

Host: So how do these people get involved?

Shaw: We have a Discord group, and now the members are almost eight or nine thousand. Everyone is helping each other. If you want to create a bot but don't know where to start, or if you've never programmed before, just join us, and we will help you.

vvaifu.fun is a great platform. Although they did it before we launched on our platform, they released an Eliza that you can run on their platform without code. We are also launching similar simple operations that let you control your character without downloading complicated things.

You just need to paste some code in the command line, and it will basically run. We are simplifying this process to allow more people to participate and focus on creating their characters and other content.

What I really want is open-source contributors. I hope more people will help us build this tech stack. If you've never touched technology, learn some TypeScript, learn Node.js, understand agents, and then come join us.

You know, I'm not a PhD; I'm self-taught, just an ordinary person. But I think I have a good idea to spread this, which is to simplify technology so that more people can understand and share it for free. This is technology that belongs to everyone, and we build it together. I don't want to hear anyone say, "I don't know where to start." Just go to YouTube, learn JavaScript, TypeScript, and get moving; don't stop. Nothing can stop you. Don't go to school to learn this because you won't learn it in school; this is progressing too fast.

Host: How important are Andy and Shoot Terminal's roles in this big picture?

Shaw: I think if he opens the source code and makes it more transparent, he could play a bigger role. He is the first to break the deadlock, and we can say we are all moving forward under his leadership, so I am very grateful to him.

I also want to thank those who introduced these things, like him and Janice, who are among the best candidates for doing this. They genuinely love AI and sincerely hope that those latent ideas can become a reality. I think they might be a bit concerned about our approach because we tend to accelerate without controlling or owning it. But I also believe that fundamentally, I don't think Andy should own it, and I don't think I should own it either. None of us should own this; it's a topic bigger than us, and everyone needs to work together to achieve it. So I am very willing to communicate with him; I have already DM'd him.

I feel that as someone from Web 3, the AI community is still exploring how to accept what we are doing. I don't have those social status symbols; I'm neither a Microsoft employee nor a PhD student, which indeed makes the acceptance of agents more difficult. But now we have this thing. So connecting with that side has always been quite challenging, communicating why our vision for memes is so important, and that all of this would not be possible without what we are doing.

You know, Janice is like a behind-the-scenes spiritual leader for me, driving a lot of things forward. Although she is low-key, she has indeed done a lot of valuable things for the community and contributed a lot technically. For example, she created a tool called Loom, which is a multiverse narrative tool, along with some consoles and other things. Besides that, she has also helped with storytelling. So she is the kind of person who understands the big picture while also contributing technically.

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