Original Title: "The Next Chapter Of Solana Mobile | Emmett Hollyer"
Original Source: Lightspeed
Original Translation: Deep Tide TechFlow
Guest: Anatoly Yakovenko, Solana Co-founder
Host: Mert Mumtaz, Helius CEO
Background Information
This week, we invited Anatoly Yakovenko, co-founder of Solana Labs. We will delve into various topics including Solana's transaction fees, how to remain competitive in the crypto space, the inflation issue of SOL, competition with Apple and Google, and whether Solana has a moat. We hope you enjoy it!
Solana's Transaction Front Running
Mert had an in-depth conversation with Anatoly Yakovenko, co-founder of Solana Labs, discussing the challenges of transaction processing on the Solana network, particularly regarding the issue of front running. Anatoly explained the original intent of Solana and the current realities it faces.
The Original Intent of Solana and Current Challenges
Anatoly mentioned that one of the reasons he founded Solana was due to frequent encounters with front running in traditional markets. He hoped to achieve global information synchronization through Solana, maximizing competition and minimizing arbitrage. However, in reality, front running remains prevalent, and in many cases, the priority fees paid by users exceed Solana's priority fees.
Solutions and Future Outlook
Anatoly believes that users can set their own validators and submit transactions, which is not possible in traditional markets. He pointed out that while this feature exists, the difficulty of setting up validators and the immaturity of the market make it hard for users to fully leverage this advantage. He emphasized that future solutions lie in increasing bandwidth, reducing latency, and optimizing the network to eliminate unfair bottlenecks.
Market Dynamics and Competition
He further explained that the current market dynamics give users with more staked assets an advantage in transaction priority, leading to a "rich get richer" phenomenon. Anatoly believes that by enhancing performance and lowering the entry barriers for honest participants, market dynamics can be changed to promote fair competition and ultimately achieve an ideal market balance.
Anatoly emphasized that the key difference between Solana and Ethereum is that solving these issues is primarily an engineering challenge. He firmly believes that by continuously optimizing the network, increasing the number of leaders per second, and expanding block sizes, Solana will be able to realize its original vision of a fair and efficient trading environment.
Solana's Fee Market
Current State of the Fee Market
In this section, Mert raised questions about Solana's fee market, particularly why transaction tips (Jito tips) exceed priority fees.
Anatoly explained that this is mainly due to the current implementation of transaction processing not being ideal, especially under high load conditions, where the performance of the fee market falls short of expectations.
Transaction Processing and Performance Bottlenecks
Anatoly pointed out that during low-load periods, Solana's transaction processing is very smooth, with confirmation times even under one second. However, when transaction volumes increase, queues become congested, making it impossible to effectively prioritize transactions, thus disrupting the normal operation of the local fee market. He emphasized that these issues are engineering challenges that require optimization of the processing pipeline.
Comparison with Other Solutions
Mert mentioned that some Layer 2 solutions seem not to face the same issues.
Anatoly countered that even if Layer 2 uses centralized sorters, similar priority issues will still arise. He noted that while these platforms may iterate faster, the fundamental problems remain. Even in Layer 2 environments, competition among multiple applications can lead to congestion in the fee market.
Future Solutions
Anatoly believes that solving these issues does not solely depend on different architectures but requires continuous optimization and improvement of existing systems. He stated that while Layer 2 may perform well in certain cases, similar challenges will still arise when multiple markets coexist. Therefore, Solana needs to invest further in engineering to optimize its transaction processing capabilities.
Scalability and Composability
Mert posed a question about how Solana competes with specific-purpose chains like Atlas. Atlas is a chain focused on DeFi that can optimize its performance without worrying about consensus and shared block space overhead.
Challenges of Simplified Optimization
Anatoly pointed out that chains like Atlas can be optimized more easily due to their fewer validators and relatively concentrated processing load. However, he emphasized that the key question is whether "synchronous composability" remains important at scale. Atlas may only cover a specific area, but information still needs to be disseminated globally.
Complexity of Global Information Dissemination
Anatoly further explained that Solana's advantage lies in having multiple validators that can submit transactions globally at the same time, and it operates as a permissionless open network. He noted that solving the problem of rapid global information dissemination and achieving consensus is the more challenging task. This means that while Atlas may perform well in localized optimizations, it still faces the same consensus and consistency issues in broader application scenarios as Solana.
Competition and User Experience
He compared such single-purpose chains to larger applications (like ByteDance), emphasizing the importance of user experience. Ultimately, users will choose platforms that provide a better experience. Therefore, Solana needs to become the best version of a decentralized exchange to stand out in competition. Anatoly believes that only by adopting a decentralized multi-proposal architecture can this goal be achieved.
Competing with L2
Solana's Challenges and L2's Advantages
Mert mentioned that Solana must address a series of issues, while L2 can resolve some of these issues more quickly.
Anatoly responded that while single-purpose chains have advantages in localized optimizations, it does not mean they can easily solve all engineering challenges. He emphasized that deploying a single chain does not automatically resolve all issues, especially when facing complex engineering challenges.
Similarity of Engineering Challenges
Anatoly further pointed out that although L2 may be faster in some aspects, they still face the same engineering challenges as Solana, particularly in transaction submission pipelines. Even single chains like Jito may encounter bottlenecks when processing large volumes of transactions, thus potentially facing limitations in data transmission rates.
The Dilemma of Shared Block Space
Mert raised the issue of shared block space, pointing out that Solana may face the challenge of the "tragedy of the commons," especially when multiple applications share the same chain. Anatoly emphasized that this sharing can only be effective in a permissioned environment. However, once permissionless validators are introduced, competition among multiple applications can lead to interference, affecting overall performance.
Importance of Isolation Issues
Anatoly stressed that even in a permissioned environment, isolation issues need to be addressed to ensure that a single market or application does not affect the performance of other markets. This isolation issue is similar to the challenges faced in solving problems within Solana. He noted that if these issues cannot be effectively resolved, there may be more specialized payment chains or single-market L2s in the future.
Diversity of Application Scenarios
Mert asked whether this market analogy applies to other types of applications.
Anatoly responded that certain applications (like peer-to-peer payments) may not face congestion issues, making scheduling relatively simple. However, if it cannot be guaranteed that a single market will not cause global congestion, companies like Visa may launch their own payment-specific L2s.
Anatoly believes that if isolation cannot be correctly implemented, the concept of a massive composable state machine will become invalid. He is confident that if these engineering problems can be solved, composability within a single environment will have significant advantages, as it will reduce friction in moving funds between different states and liquidity. He concluded that Solana's survival during the bear market is partly due to its composability and higher capital efficiency.
Synchronous Composability
Mert quoted Vitalik's view that synchronous composability is overestimated and mentioned the lack of empirical evidence supporting this claim. He expressed skepticism about this view and asked Anatoly for his thoughts.
Anatoly's Rebuttal
Anatoly rebutted Vitalik's view, pointing out that Jupiter is a typical example of synchronous composability. He emphasized that Jupiter occupies a significant market share in the Solana ecosystem, proving the importance of synchronous composability in practical applications. He believes that Jupiter's success could not have been achieved without synchronous composability.
Using Ethereum as an Example
Anatoly further mentioned that the competitor 1inch has not performed well on Ethereum, partly due to the high and slow transaction costs between cross-L2s. He believes this situation indicates that the lack of effective synchronous composability will limit the scalability of DeFi applications.
Comparison of Asynchronous and Synchronous
Anatoly acknowledged the existence of asynchronous finance, noting that most financial systems operate asynchronously, which does not mean these systems will disappear. However, he firmly believes that if Solana continues to address the current issues and maintains continuous improvement, synchronous composability will ultimately emerge as the winner.
Future Outlook
Anatoly holds an optimistic view of Solana's future, believing that as the ecosystem continues to develop and problems are resolved, synchronous composability will gain greater advantages in the crypto space. He believes that in the long run, systems that can achieve more efficient and faster transactions will lead the market.
Validators
Mert's Question about Validators
Mert posed a question about how the role and number of validators would affect the success of the network, assuming other chains could overcome engineering issues and achieve synchronous composability. He asked Anatoly what the moat would be if engineering is not the moat.
Anatoly's View on the Number of Validators
Anatoly stated that Solana does not have a specific target for the number of validators. He hopes to have as many validators as possible to prepare for the future of the network. He believes that having more validators can increase the chances of block production and allow more people to participate in various parts of the network without permission.
Network Scalability
Anatoly emphasized that the cost of solving these issues is relatively low, so Solana does not need to reduce the number of validators for performance reasons. He believes that if Solana can attract more users, more users will want to run their own nodes, thereby increasing the network's security and decentralization.
Changes in the Number of Validators
Mert mentioned that although the goal is to increase the number of validators, data shows that the number of validators has decreased over a period of time. He asked Anatoly if this is related to a lack of product-market fit (PMF), leading to insufficient incentives for users to run their own nodes.
Self-Sustaining Validators
Anatoly agreed and expressed interest in the number of self-sustaining validators. He mentioned that while the total number of validators may be large, the number of truly self-sustaining validators may be small. He believes the network must be able to scale to support all users who wish to run nodes.
Delegation and Stress Testing
Anatoly explained the purpose of the delegation program, which is to involve as many people as possible in the network for stress testing. He believes that while testnets cannot fully simulate the characteristics of the mainnet, the growth of self-sustaining validators is a positive trend.
Theory and Practice of Validators
Mert pointed out that delegation can help stress test the network, but Anatoly emphasized that the most important factor is self-sustaining validators. Even theoretically, a single validator may still be helpful in catastrophic failures, but fundamentally, whether the network is growing and succeeding is key.
Solana Inflation
Mert's Questions about Inflation
Mert raised concerns that Solana's inflation plan has been criticized, suggesting that this inflation might subsidize validators by providing more rewards, which could harm pure investors. He asked Anatoly for his views on excessive inflation.
Anatoly's Response
Anatoly suggested referring to John Carbono's article, arguing that discussions about inflation are somewhat pointless. He stated that moving numbers around does not truly create or destroy value; it merely affects accounting figures. The existence of inflation is because it was copied from Cosmos, where most of the original validators came from.
Impact of Inflation
Anatoly further explained that the impact of inflation on individuals depends on their specific tax regimes, but from the perspective of the entire network, inflation is a cost for non-stakers and a corresponding benefit for stakers, which sums to zero. Therefore, from an accounting perspective, inflation is not significant in the overall performance of the network.
Views on Reducing Inflation
Mert mentioned that some believe if inflation is arbitrary, why not reduce it. Anatoly responded that anyone can attempt to change the inflation rate, but ultimately, it requires convincing validators to adopt this change. He pointed out that the main constraint when choosing these numbers is ensuring that it does not lead to catastrophic consequences, and the Cosmos model is effective in this regard.
How Does Solana Compete?
Mert's Questions about Competition
Mert mentioned that in an environment where everyone can run systems quickly, cheaply, and without permission, why should people choose Solana?
Anatoly's Views on Competition
Anatoly believes that the future winners will either be Solana, due to its ecosystem performing well in execution and being ahead of other issues, or other projects that are very similar to Solana but execute faster. He noted that the only reason they would not be Solana is that they execute faster, overcoming network effects that Solana may not yet possess.
Importance of Execution
Anatoly emphasized that execution is the only moat. If there is no advantage in execution, other projects are likely to surpass Solana. He mentioned that shifts in user behavior (i.e., product-market fit, PMF) are key. For example, if transaction fees are ten times cheaper, would users switch? If the fees users are already paying are very low (like half a cent), then even if other platforms have lower fees, they may not switch.
Changes in User Behavior
Anatoly illustrated that the difference between Solana and Ethereum is that users see fees as high as $30 when transacting, and this price difference is enough to drive changes in user behavior. Additionally, confirmation time is also a significant factor; Ethereum's confirmation time may take two minutes, while Solana's confirmation time is around 2 seconds, sometimes even reaching 8 seconds.
Potential for Performance Optimization
He pointed out that whether the improvement from 8 seconds to 400 milliseconds is enough to prompt users to switch products remains unknown. However, Solana's engineering design does not hinder the network from optimizing to improve latency and throughput.
Challenges of Competition
Anatoly concluded that while Solana's growth rate may exceed Ethereum's, the marginal differences among other competitors are relatively small, making it difficult to achieve significant changes in user behavior. This is the main challenge Solana faces.
Execution as a Moat
Mert on the Challenges of Execution and Organization
Mert mentioned that if execution is the most important moat, then it becomes a challenge of organization and coordination to some extent. He used Solana and modularization (though this term is not entirely accurate) as an example, pointing out that when developing applications on Solana (like Drip), developers need to wait for L1 (Layer 1) to make certain changes, such as handling congestion or fixing bugs. In contrast, on application-specific chains (ML2), developers can make these changes themselves, potentially achieving faster execution on other chains.
Anatoly's Views on Execution Speed
Anatoly believes that over time, the gap in execution speed will narrow. He cited Ethereum as an example, noting that if developing applications on Ethereum leads to fees rising to $50, developers may need to ask Vitalik when this issue will be resolved, to which he might respond with a six-year roadmap, indicating that solving the problem will take time. However, on Solana, the team responds quickly and works to resolve issues in the next version.
Cultural and Response Speed Differences
Anatoly emphasized that in Solana's ecosystem, the entire infrastructure for submitting transactions understands that when slow or global congestion occurs, it is a zero-priority emergency issue that must be resolved immediately. He stated that as network usage grows, significant design changes (like changes to the fee market) become increasingly unlikely.
Possibility of Design Changes
He pointed out that there are currently no significant design changes imminent, meaning the network will not face major design fixes that require six months to a year. While there may be some unexpected release bugs that require the team to work overtime to resolve, this is considered normal.
Advantages and Costs of Application-Specific L2s
Anatoly further mentioned that if developers have their own application-specific L2s instead of shared infrastructure, they may move faster, but the costs of doing so are also high. Therefore, for most use cases, using a shared, composable infrastructure layer may be cheaper and faster, and as the software layer improves and bugs are fixed, this gap will gradually narrow.
Firedancer
Mert's Views on Firedancer
Mert mentioned the recent buzz around Firedancer, quoting Jerry's perspective that the project may be overhyped and noting that it will indeed slow progress in the early stages as ANSA engineers and others need to reach consensus on certain matters and develop from there. He asked Anatoly if faster iterations could be achieved once specifications and interfaces are clear.
Anatoly on the Steps of Design and Implementation
Anatoly explained three steps: design, implementation, and testing validation. He believes the design phase may take longer, but implementation can proceed in parallel, and the testing and auditing phase should be faster because the probability of two independent teams making the same mistake is low. He noted that Ethereum's characteristic is that all target features are concentrated in each major version release, while Solana sets a release date, and if a feature is not completed, it will be removed, allowing Solana to release versions more quickly.
Accelerating Iteration Cycles
Anatoly believes that theoretically, the iteration cycles of the two teams can be accelerated as long as the core engineers are willing to release quickly. He emphasized that cultural background is also important; both teams work under high-pressure environments and can respond and execute quickly.
Challenges of Coordination and Execution
Mert then raised a third point about coordination and execution, questioning whether it is correct to assume that there is no execution capability in development work.
Anatoly stated that one of the significant changes he was involved in was moving the account database index out of RAM. He could design and propose solutions, but successful implementation requires a full-time engineer focused on this task.
Individual Roles and Influence
Anatoly believes that as an individual contributor (IC), he wishes to focus on the development of Firedancer, but in reality, his time is spread across many different projects. He finds that his most significant influence lies in defining problem states, such as the multiple concurrent leader problem or MEV competition issues, proposing solutions, and discussing them with the team to reach consensus.
Cohesion of Design and Implementation
Anatoly emphasized that once a design is recognized, it gradually solidifies and becomes more cohesive as discussions deepen. When the urgency he anticipates begins to rise, the team already has a design foundation, and the next steps are implementation and testing. His role is similar to that of a chief engineer in a large company, primarily responsible for coordinating various teams, helping them solve problems, and reaching consensus.
Solana Mobile
Mert asked Anatoly if this means he believes successful individuals like Jack Dorsey and Elon Musk can coordinate and execute simultaneously while launching a phone.
Anatoly's Trust in the Team
Anatoly stated that he does not bear all the responsibility alone but has an excellent engineer and a great general manager who are jointly responsible for executing the phone project. He emphasized that his role is to set the vision, believing that building a trusted mobile platform is possible. He mentioned that the firmware of Android and iOS is encrypted and signed, providing a trust foundation for the entire platform.
Importance of Encrypted Signatures
Anatoly further explained that firmware updates will verify signatures, and this process is key to the overall security. He envisions that if companies like Apple could control cryptographic signature certificates through a DAO (Decentralized Autonomous Organization), it would disrupt the existing software platform concept.
Setting Vision and Team Execution
Anatoly pointed out that his job is to set the vision and motivate the team to sell more phones to make the project meaningful and ultimately achieve the goal of the entire ecosystem controlling its firmware. He does not participate in the day-to-day execution work. He mentioned that Elon Musk's way of working is to set a big goal and then find an engineer who can complete that goal from start to finish. He believes that if this engineer is given enough funding and time, they can complete the entire project.
Mert's Discussion on Business and Ideals
Mert further explored whether the success of this phone project and its disruption of the existing market landscape would lead Apple to lower its fees. Anatoly believes that this change is aimed at preventing small and medium-sized software companies from paying a 30% fee to Apple as if paying a ransom, which would promote more productivity and software development.
Combining Ideals and Business
Anatoly emphasized that the ideal goals can only be achieved if the project is commercially successful. He pointed out that Apple must see competitive pressure from a growing and commercially viable ecosystem to change its fee structure. Therefore, this project must find product-market fit and maintain self-sustainability. He believes this does not hinder its potential to change the world, as lowering fees will alter the market economy, benefiting consumers.
Competing with Apple and Google
Mert asked Anatoly if he believes they have the capability to compete with the world's largest companies—Apple and Google—and what gives him that confidence.
Anatoly's Views on the Market Situation
Anatoly stated that a 30% fee is clearly too high, and this issue has garnered attention from many, including Tim Sweeney's lawsuits against Apple and Google. He pointed out that this "rent-seeking" behavior by Apple and Google has troubled businesses that rely on these platforms for distribution. Consumers do not care about these hidden fees because 30% of the amount they pay for applications is deducted by Apple.
Challenges of Solutions
Anatoly emphasized that the key to solving this problem lies in how to break the existing charging model, which is essentially a network creation issue. He believes that blockchain technology has advantages in the financialization of digital assets and scarcity, which differs from the traditional Web2 model. He acknowledged that while this idea has potential, it could also fail.
Reasons for Failure
Anatoly pointed out that the reason for failure is not that application developers do not want lower fees, but rather that an effective method to leverage the incentives provided by cryptography to expand the network has not yet been found. He stressed that this is not a product or business model issue, but rather the challenge of how to truly change user behavior to make them willing to switch networks.
L1 Business Model
Mert began discussing ZK (Zero-Knowledge) technology and asked Anatoly about Solana's vision in this area. He mentioned that future blockchains might rely entirely on ZK technology, requiring only proof verification without executing all operations on full nodes. He questioned whether Solana has relevant plans.
Anatoly's Explanation of Asynchronous Execution
Anatoly responded that if one looks at his previous writings on asynchronous execution, they would understand his views on validators. He mentioned that multiple validators can share a common prover to verify the state. This means that different trust models (like Te or ZK1) can be used, and once the application packages the entire asynchronous execution and computes the snapshot hash, this goal can be achieved.
Compatibility of ZK with Solana
Anatoly emphasized that fully verifiable ZK packaging is not something Solana lacks. He stated that asynchronous execution allows for the computation of snapshot hashes, regardless of the trust model used. He pointed out that if users run their own full nodes, the environment used does not affect their full nodes.
Solana's Business Model
Anatoly further elaborated on Solana's survival strategy, which must have commercial viability. He believes that the only business model for L1 is priority fees, which is the same as maximum extractable value (MAV). This means that it is necessary to build rollups that generate their own mathematics and perform external sorting on L1, with these rollups being a parasitic relationship to L1.
Importance of Competitive Environment
Anatoly believes that these competitive environments are beneficial and can make each other better. He mentioned that excellent athletes, like LeBron, want to compete with the best opponents rather than participate in high school leagues. He noted that while other technologies (like SVMs) are also accelerating development, this differs from the core philosophy of the Solana ecosystem.
Differences Between ZK Technology and Solana
Anatoly concluded by summarizing that there is a fundamental difference between ZK technology and other technologies in their application on Solana and Ethereum. He mentioned that Solana's lightweight protocol is excellent because its sorting is done by Solana validators on the Solana mainnet. This mechanism gives Solana a unique advantage in processing transactions and executing smart contracts.
Bandwidth
Mert's Theoretical Exploration of Bandwidth
Mert presented a theoretical example, assuming that bandwidth is maximized, latency is reduced, and some additional hardware is added when channels are saturated. He questioned what would happen if cryptocurrencies indeed increased adoption rates.
Anatoly's Views on Network Saturation
Anatoly stated that even with increased bandwidth, another network cannot be launched because Solana's full nodes have already completely saturated the bandwidth of every Internet Service Provider (ISP), and others have no more capacity. He emphasized that Solana has "consumed" all available bandwidth.
Relationship Between Bandwidth and TPS
Anatoly further explained that almost every mobile phone globally can achieve 1 Gbps of bandwidth, which means that under current inefficient conditions, Solana's Turbine mechanism can handle 250,000 transactions per second (TPS). He believes this is an astronomical figure, and the bandwidth must be saturated before discussing other issues. He pointed out that Solana is currently lagging 250 times in load and must achieve a 250-fold improvement before considering other issues.
Current Technological Level
Anatoly emphasized that the 1 Gbps technology standard has existed for 25 years, but Solana has not yet reached this saturation point. He mentioned that while the Fire Dancer team has demonstrated this capability in a lab environment, there are many other issues to resolve in a real commercial environment to effectively utilize these technologies.
Mert's Question on Competitive Environment
Mert finally asked how Solana can compete in transaction volume, especially if the quality of assets or stablecoins is not high, given that Ethereum has higher quality assets due to its existing security effects.
Anatoly's Views on Assets
Anatoly responded that Ethereum's assets could start being referred to as "traditional assets," and he believes that new assets need to be launched in large quantities. He stated that this narrative must change, emphasizing that Ethereum is the platform for "traditional assets" to attract new attention and usage.
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