How 78-year-old Trump won re-election will become history, and America's choice can already be traced back to some key decisions.

Written by: Eric Cortellessa, TIME

Translated by: Liam Carbon Chain Value

This is the moment he has dreamed of for four years. At 2:24 AM on November 6, Donald Trump swaggered onto the stage of a banquet hall in Florida, surrounded by advisors, party leaders, family, and friends. The Associated Press had not yet announced the election results, but it was already clear that voters had pushed him back to the center of power. Trump gazed at a crowd of supporters wearing red MAGA hats, immersed in the almost certain victory. "We have achieved the most incredible political accomplishment," Trump said. "America has given us an unprecedented strong mandate."

How 78-year-old Trump won re-election will become history, and America's choice can already be traced back to some key decisions. For Trump's senior aides, the theme of the campaign can be summarized in a simple slogan: "Maximize male engagement, control female engagement." This meant emphasizing economic and immigration issues, which Trump relentlessly did. It meant diverting attention from the chaos of his first term, the abortion bans he introduced, and the attacks on American democracy from four years ago. It meant that this campaign capitalized on the discontent of disappointed voters and leveraged the cultural divides and tribal politics that Trump has long exploited.

Most importantly, this outcome can be attributed to an extraordinary figure whose political trajectory back to the White House is unprecedented in 250 years of American history. When Trump left office in 2021, he incited a mob of supporters to storm the U.S. Capitol in an attempt to overturn his electoral defeat, resulting in widespread condemnation. Three years later, he orchestrated an unprecedented political comeback. Trump effortlessly defeated his Republican opponents, forced President Joe Biden out of the race, and overwhelmingly defeated Vice President Kamala Harris, which exceeded nearly everyone's expectations. In the process, Trump shed 34 felony convictions and a series of other criminal charges.

His success is astonishing. Trump won North Carolina, pulled Georgia back into his camp, and broke the blue wall. His campaign exceeded expectations in rallying male voters and gaining support from female voters. Exit polls showed that Trump garnered significant support from Latino male voters in key battleground states, with support in Pennsylvania rising from 27% to 42% for this group. Nationwide, Trump's support among Latino males jumped from 36% to 54%. Trump also increased the proportion of non-college-educated voters, won support from Black voters in Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, and solidified support among white women nationwide, shocking Democrats who had expected an uprising after the Dobbs decision. Among first-time voters, Trump's support rose from 32% four years ago to 54%.

He achieved several significant breakthroughs. When Trump launched his campaign after facing a third consecutive condemnation in the national election, Republican leaders tried to ignore him. His main opponents were too timid to confront him. The dual factors of friendly judges and legal delays pushed his most severe criminal trials to after the election. Until July, Trump's election opponents were an unpopular sitting president, with many believing he was too old to continue in office. Biden performed poorly in the first and only debate, confirming those doubts. The Democrats hastily replaced the first-term president with Harris, losing a more experienced candidate who might have garnered broader support. Voters remained unfazed by Trump's advanced age and increasingly incoherent campaign rhetoric. Most Americans viewed Trump's legal troubles as part of a larger corrupt conspiracy aimed at stripping him and them of power. The global turmoil following the COVID-19 pandemic led to the ousting of incumbent leaders worldwide, which also benefited Trump.

The consequences could be historic. Trump has dominated American politics for nine years, and after a tumultuous four-year presidency and an insurrection, America chose to reappoint him. Trump proposed an authoritarian agenda that undermines American democratic norms during the campaign, and he has been preparing to implement this agenda: mass detention and deportation of immigrants; using the judicial system to retaliate against political enemies; deploying the military against his own citizens. The extent to which he chooses to wield the power granted to him by the public will determine the fate of this country.

For the loyal supporters of "Make America Great Again," Trump's victory is an exhilarating vision. For those less fervent supporters who helped him reach the pinnacle, his rhetoric is largely bluster aimed at reforming a government disconnected from the economic and social needs of America. For much of the rest of America and the world, Trump's second term seems like a blow to democracy in the U.S. and beyond. This division will become the focal point of American public opinion over the next four years. The polarization in this country is more severe than at any time since the Civil War. But soon, at least one thing will unite us all: by January 20, we will all be living in Trump's America. This article is based on over 20 interviews conducted in the past eight months, detailing how Trump achieved this and giving us a glimpse of what a possible Trump presidency might look like.

As usual, Trump devised his strategy intuitively. In April 2023, just days after becoming the first former president to be criminally charged and making history, he huddled with advisors at his Mar-a-Lago estate in Florida. The topic of conversation was: how could he control the political narrative? Trump had just finished a call with his friend, UFC CEO Dana White. There was a fight in Miami that Saturday. "I think those guys will like me," Trump said.

On April 10, when Trump entered the arena, he was met with thunderous applause. There, he encountered the Nelk Boys, a group of influential figures hosting a right-wing podcast. Trump had appeared on their show a year earlier but was removed from YouTube for spreading election lies. This chance encounter led to a second appearance. His closest confidants at the time did not realize it, but the interview on the male-centric podcast would become a turning point in his extraordinary political revival.

It is easy to forget how unstable Trump's prospects were at the beginning of his campaign. He announced his third presidential run in November 2022, just days after the Republican Party suffered a crushing defeat in the midterm elections—this was the third consecutive time the former president was seen as a drag on the party's national elections. Trump's carefully selected candidates accepted his lies that the 2020 election was stolen and lost key races nationwide. Elected Republicans viewed this as a sign that America was parting ways with Trump, and nearly everyone avoided his discontent-filled opening speech at Mar-a-Lago. They just hoped he would disappear.

But it turned out that launching the campaign early was a wise move, as Trump positioned the impending criminal charges as politically motivated. With each indictment, his support among Republican voters increased, and he raised millions of dollars in cash. His main competitors spent more time attacking each other than defeating the person obstructing their progress. Florida Governor Ron DeSantis could be considered Trump's most formidable opponent, but he dropped out of the race after the Iowa primary. By March, Trump had secured enough delegates to become the Republican nominee. This was the most competitive presidential primary in modern American history.

Trump's overwhelming victory in the primaries was the result of a carefully crafted strategy by his two campaign managers, Susie Wiles and Chris LaCivita. Wiles is a seasoned strategist from Florida who worked for DeSantis during his 2018 gubernatorial campaign but fell out with him after he took office. After the 2020 presidential election, Wiles took over Trump's primary political action committee, "Save America." According to sources close to him, Trump, although in exile, was already plotting a path back to Washington, suspecting that the biggest obstacle in the 2024 primaries might be DeSantis. Who better than Wiles to help him?

Wiles recruited seasoned Republican operative LaCivita. Together, they drafted the campaign strategy. They concluded that the supporters of the Make America Great Again movement were strong enough to ensure Trump's victory in the Republican primaries, giving them time to test a plan to defeat Biden in November. Trump's team focused on building an operation to identify and weed out those who were not reliable Trump supporters.

Wiles, LaCivita, political director James Blair, and Trump's longtime pollster Tony Fabrizio believed that gender would be key. In 2020, Biden maintained a 13-point lead over Trump among female voters, while narrowing the gap among male voters by 5 points. "Men lost us the last election," a senior member of Trump's campaign team said. "Our goal is to make sure that doesn't happen again."

Surveys found that men, especially young men, had the strongest aversion to Biden, particularly on economic issues. In face-to-face matchups, Trump had the most significant lead among unreliable male voters under 40. Advisors focused on activating this group, who generally viewed Biden as an elderly man who should not be president. These young men did not get their news from mainstream media and were less concerned about reproductive rights or democratic backsliding. When they did engage with politics, it was primarily through edgy bro podcasts and social media. They appreciated Trump's recklessness and unconventional habits. Focusing significant energy on courting those less politically engaged voters was a risk. But LaCivita often repeated a quote from Winston Churchill that later became his campaign slogan: "To seek safety everywhere is to be paralyzed everywhere."

While Trump sought male votes, he also had to avoid losing among female voters by a larger margin than in 2016 and 2020—no easy task, as the Supreme Court justices he appointed helped overturn Roe v. Wade, paving the way for nationwide abortion bans. Whenever abortion was mentioned, Trump insisted that the issue was now up to the states and focused as much as possible on economic, immigration, and crime issues—issues that his campaign believed triggered anxiety among affluent suburban women who were otherwise willing to support him.

When Trump was interviewed by TIME magazine in April 2024, Biden's poll numbers were declining, and Trump's camp believed they were on the path to decisive victory. In the two interviews, Trump outlined the agenda for a second term that would reshape America and its role in the world. Meanwhile, a group of organizations allied with Trump, such as the Heritage Foundation's 2025 Project and the American Revival Center, were laying the groundwork for implementing Trump's strongman vision. Many of their ideas—from implementing strict abortion restrictions to rolling back environmental protections to placing the entire federal bureaucracy under presidential control—are unpopular with the broader electorate. But Trump seems to believe that victory in the fall is destined.

Starting with Biden's disastrous debate performance on June 27, the campaign team's confidence only began to grow during a tense three weeks. On July 13, Trump survived an assassination attempt in Butler, Pennsylvania, where a shooter's bullet grazed his ear. Trump stood up, raised his fists, and bled from his face, a defiant scene that thrilled his supporters. Days later, Trump announced 39-year-old Ohio Senator J.D. Vance as his running mate at the Republican convention, seemingly indicating his confidence that the MAGA movement would endure even if its leader stepped back from politics.

The high point did not last long. Three days after the Republican convention, Biden announced he would not seek re-election and endorsed Harris. Within days, the Vice President solidified support for the Democrats. Soon, her fundraising outpaced Trump's by hundreds of millions, and she held rallies that drew attendance and enthusiasm not seen from Republicans since the Obama era. Trump's victory no longer seemed assured.

In a series of meetings held at Mar-a-Lago and Trump's New Jersey golf club, Wiles, LaCivita, and their staff held multiple discussions to address the threat posed by the new opponent. The younger candidate made it more difficult for them to attract disillusioned voters from Biden's camp. Controlling losses among female voters would be even more challenging in the face of female competition. The Democrats' efforts to link Trump to extreme agendas like the "2025 Plan" began to bear fruit. According to Trump's insiders, early internal polling indicated this challenge. Fabrizio's surveys showed a widespread desire for change, with the biggest risk being allowing Harris to become the candidate for change.

Trump's team began running ads and had their agents appear on cable news, blaming Biden's election on Harris and speculating that she would inherit many of her boss's weaknesses. They focused on her role in government immigration affairs, where she was tasked with addressing the root causes of Central American migration, blaming her for the surge in border crossings. Meanwhile, Trump began to distance himself from the "2025 Plan" while striving to portray Harris as more left-leaning than she actually was.

Privately, the campaign team believed Trump's message on abortion—leaving it to the states—was insufficient. Polls indicated that abortion rights were among the top three or four issues voters cared about most. After months of hesitation on federal restrictions, a senior aide told Trump it was time to address the issue directly. On October 1, Trump posted on Truth Social that he would not support a national ban.

Challenges also arose internally. Trump became increasingly restless. He brought in allies from previous campaigns, including Corey Lewandowski, one of his 2016 campaign managers. According to several campaign officials, Lewandowski was one of the staunchest supporters of "letting Trump be Trump," believing that Wiles and LaCivita had messed up. In August, Lewandowski held a meeting with Trump, suggesting that the Republican candidate fire the entire campaign leadership. Trump made no commitments, merely nodding and listening to his advice. Wiles and LaCivita soon met with Trump, stating that Lewandowski was distracting and derailing the campaign. Wiles told him that what they had been doing was effective and that now was not the time to deviate from the course. Trump agreed. On the next flight, he held a meeting with everyone, including Lewandowski, who was sidelined in the final weeks of the campaign and essentially only appeared on cable news.

Harris's momentum seemed to carry into September. She won the only debate between the two candidates, luring Trump into mistakes. "We are very concerned internally; she is a stronger opponent than we realized, and the situation has changed," said a senior Trump official. But a week later, when polls showed the debate had little impact on the campaign outcome and candidates were tied in polling, the campaign team breathed a sigh of relief. Trump returned to his mantra: ramping up efforts to win over young male voters. Several insiders told TIME that at the end of July, Wiles commissioned 27-year-old Republican consultant Alex Brusewitz to provide Trump with a list of online podcast personalities for interviews. The next morning, Brusewitz and another senior Trump advisor, Daniel Alvarez, found Trump on the golf course.

"I have a podcast list I want to recommend to you," Brusewitz said. Trump interrupted him. "Have you talked to Barron about this?" he asked, referring to his 18-year-old son.

"No, sir," Brusewitz replied.

"Call Barron, see what he thinks, and then let me know," Trump said before hanging up. Later that day, Brusewitz reached Barron, who expressed a particular liking for Aiden Ross, a provocateur known for live-streaming video games with celebrities (like NBA2K and Grand Theft Auto). They agreed that Trump should start from there. The podcast strategy was being implemented.

In August, Trump appeared on Ross's podcast, which quickly went viral, garnering millions of views during the live stream. In the following weeks, Trump participated in a series of flattering interviews with young male podcast hosts: Logan Paul, Theo Von, Joe Rogan. The campaign team deliberately avoided interviews with most traditional media outlets.

Trump took an unconventional approach with outsiders. Kennedy claimed he offered control over healthcare policy to Robert F. Kennedy Jr. in exchange for his withdrawal from the race and support for him, thereby defusing a potential third-party threat. The campaign outsourced its labor-intensive field operations in key swing states to organizations like Turning Point USA and America First Works. In the final weeks of the campaign, billionaire Elon Musk poured over $100 million into his political action committee to help Trump in swing states. Musk promised to lead a new "Government Efficiency Committee," which would oversee the myriad federal agencies regulating his companies. He hired staff and incentivized them to engage with voters. He personally camped out in Pennsylvania, which both sides considered a key battleground state, issuing $1 million checks to registered voters who signed petitions. Musk also turned his social media platform X into a melting pot of conspiracy theories, describing the stakes of the campaign to his more than 200 million followers. In the final weeks of the election, he unveiled far-right conspiracy theories claiming that the Democrats were "importing" undocumented immigrants into swing states to irreversibly tilt the electoral map in their favor. "If Trump can't win," Musk said, "this is the last election."

As usual, Trump's self-destructive impulses posed challenges. Just over a week before election day, he fulfilled a lifelong dream by holding a rally at Madison Square Garden in New York. Trump's warm-up speakers delivered hate-filled, xenophobic, and racist rhetoric at the event. The Trump campaign brought in a group of vulgar boxers, including the insulting comedian Tony Hinchcliffe, who referred to Puerto Rico as a "floating garbage island." According to two insiders, the campaign did not vet his remarks or upload them to the teleprompter before his routine speech.

Trump's former chief of staff, John Kelly, recently publicly stated that Trump had praised Hitler's generals. Trump's former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, retired General Mark Milley, called him a "full-blown fascist." Internal polling from Harris's campaign showed that the rally's repugnant atmosphere swayed late-deciding voters toward supporting her. Trump appeared to be on the verge of collapsing at the last moment.

Just after 9 PM on election night, Trump walked into the banquet hall at Mar-a-Lago, filled with his wealthy donors, the cheers deafening. Behind him were his family, including his son Eric and daughter-in-law Lara, as well as his youngest son Barron. For the next three and a half hours, he and Musk, along with White, watched the election results come in, which were better than even his most optimistic supporters had predicted.

Trump's transition team was packed with loyal followers, such as former cabinet member Linda McMahon and businessman Howard Lutnick, his sons Donald Jr. and Eric, and his running mate Vance. They all bore the task of ensuring that only true believers could join his incoming administration. He was expected to leverage the network of organizations that had been preparing to implement his ideas. This included his former director of the Office of Management and Budget, Russ Vought, who had been drafting executive order proposals that Trump could sign within hours of taking office.

The first and most radical agenda item was expected to be immigration and border issues. In an interview with TIME, Trump stated that he planned to use executive power to begin mass deportations of undocumented immigrants, ordering the National Guard, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, and federal law enforcement agencies to conduct raids. According to campaign insiders, former Trump official Tom Homan, now affiliated with the 2025 Project, was expected to lead this effort.

Meanwhile, Trump's senior advisors told TIME that there would be a massive purge of the federal bureaucracy. They said the most satisfying part for Trump would be firing special prosecutor Jack Smith, who charged Trump with willfully mishandling classified information and conspiring to overturn the 2020 election.

Trump's most controversial moves would almost certainly face significant legal and political battles. He vowed during the campaign to select an Attorney General to investigate and prosecute his political opponents and critics. A Supreme Court ruling last summer emboldened Trump, granting the President of the United States immunity from certain criminal prosecutions for official actions. Given Trump's psychological tendencies, his vows of retribution against opponents, and the dismantling of many obstacles that hindered him during his first term, authoritarian scholars believe the country is on the brink of crisis.

Ultimately, the election is a judgment on the American people and the president they have chosen again. Trump's resurgence is no accident. By launching a social and political movement, Trump gained coercive power over the Republican Party, systematically dismantling many long-standing norms in America and ushering in a cadre of sycophants who would satisfy his most dictatorial impulses. He will enter a second term committed to creating a governance environment with almost no limits on his power. He makes no secret of this. This is what the American people have decided they want.

On April 12, former President Donald Trump gave a wide-ranging interview to TIME magazine at his Mar-a-Lago club in Palm Beach, Florida, followed by a phone interview on April 27.

In the interview, Trump discussed his agenda for a second term, which includes deporting millions, cutting the number of American civil servants, and intervening more directly in the Justice Department's prosecutions than his predecessor. He also discussed his views on other issues, including abortion, crime, trade, Ukraine, Israel, and the prospects of political violence in this election cycle.

The following is a transcript of Trump's interview with TIME national political reporter Eric Cortellessa, lightly edited for clarity by TIME.

Let's start from day one: January 20, 2025. You have said that you will take a series of aggressive actions on border and immigration issues—

Donald Trump: Yes.

You vowed to—

Trump: And energy issues.

Yes, yes. We will definitely talk about that. You vowed to initiate the largest deportation operation in U.S. history. Your advisors say this includes—

Trump: Because we have no choice. I don't think a country can endure what we are experiencing, and by the time Biden leaves office, there could be 15 million, or even up to 20 million people. 20 million, many of whom are coming from prisons, many from mental hospitals. I mean, look at what is happening in Venezuela and other countries. They are becoming safer.

Well, let's talk about—you mentioned a large-scale deportation operation. I want to understand specifically how you plan to do this.

Trump: If you look back to the 1950s, Dwight Eisenhower was not known for this, you wouldn't think of him that way. Because you see, Eric, but Dwight Eisenhower took illegal immigration very seriously. He deported a large number of illegal immigrants. He did it for a long time and very skillfully. He took them to the other side of the border, and a few days later, they were back again. Then he started taking them 3,000 miles away—

Do you have a plan, sir?

Trump: We will utilize local law enforcement. We will absolutely start with the criminals entering. The number of them coming in is unprecedented. We are indeed encountering a new type of crime. This crime is called immigration crime. This crime, uh, you often see. In New York, they are clashing with police. And worse. You can often see it. It can be seen in all cities, especially in cities run by Democrats, many of which are large cities, but the situation is worse in Chicago, New York, and Los Angeles than elsewhere.

Does this include using the U.S. military?

Trump: Yes. When we talk about the military, we generally mean the National Guard. I have deployed the National Guard in Minneapolis. If I hadn't deployed it, I don't think Minneapolis would exist right now because the situation was really bad. But I think it refers to the National Guard. But if I think things are out of control, I can absolutely use the military if necessary. We must ensure national security. We must uphold the laws and order of the nation. However we do it, I believe the National Guard can handle it. You know, if Nancy Pelosi deployed the National Guard, I would be willing to meet any of their requests, but I often—

Would you deploy the military both inland and at the border?

Trump: I don't think I have to do that. I think the National Guard can handle it. If they can't, then I will deploy the military. You know, our situation is different. We now have millions of people, and we didn't have that two years ago.

Sir, the Militia Act states that the military cannot be used against civilians. Would you ignore this provision?

Trump: Well, these people are not civilians. They are not legally entering our country. This is an invasion of our country. This invasion may be something no country has ever seen. They are pouring in by the millions. I believe we now have 15 million people. I think by the time this is over, you will have 20 million. That is more than the population of almost every state.

So you can see yourself using the military to solve this problem?

Trump: I can see myself using the National Guard, and if necessary, I must go further. We must do everything we can to stop the problems we are facing. Again, our country is gathering a strong force; in the past three weeks, 29,000 people have poured in from China, and they are all underage, mostly male. Yes, you have to take the necessary measures to stop crime and what is happening at the border.

Does this include building new immigration detention camps?

Trump: We don't need to do too much. Because we will take them out of this country. We will not leave them here. We will take them out. This has been done before.

Will you build new ones?

Trump: Obama did this in the form of prisons, you know, prisons. I was criticized for four months for that. Then people realized it was him, not me.

So, do you rule out the possibility of building new immigration detention camps?

Trump: No, I will not rule out any possibilities. But in fact, we are about to transfer them out, so we don't need that many detention camps. We want to take them back to where they came from.

The reason I ask is that your close aide and advisor Stephen Miller has indicated that part of the work of executing this deportation will include building new immigration detention camps.

Trump: We may do that to some extent, but we don't have to do too much because once we start acting, we will drive them out. We will obviously start with the criminals. We will utilize local police because they know their names, middle names, and third names. I mean, they know them very well.

How do you plan to involve state and local police departments? What authority does the president have to do this?

Trump: Some may be reluctant to participate because they don't want to share the wealth. We have to do this. This issue is not sustainable for our country.

Does this mean you will provide funding incentives from the federal government to state and local police departments?

Trump: Very likely. I want to protect the police from prosecution because liberal groups or progressive groups (depending on what they want to be called, a bit liberal, a bit progressive) are very insistent; they want everyone involved, I don't know. You know, sanctuary cities are failing everywhere. I truly believe that those who support sanctuary cities also have a long-suppressed sentiment to end sanctuary cities because it simply does not work for the country.

So, by your own words, these are the new, bold, and aggressive actions you will take.

Trump: I don't think they are bold actions. I think they are common-sense actions. But I really believe, Eric, that these actions—they allow so many people to enter our country, which is truly unbelievable, especially considering that most of them are unchecked or unvetted. They are just pouring in. The number they are pouring in is something no country has ever seen. This is an invasion of our country.

Well, let me put it this way: they are new immigrants and will certainly be tested in court. If the court rules against you, do you commit to complying with all court orders supported by the Supreme Court?

Trump: I will comply with court orders. I will act in a very legal manner, just like I built the wall. You know, I built a huge wall, which gave us a lot of data. I am willing to do far more than what I have said. I was willing to do it in the past and I am willing to do it now—they should finish that wall. I completed what I said, and I did much more than I imagined. But when you do it, you find that you need to build more walls in different places, and people once thought you couldn't do it—you don't need to do it.

But frankly, I first discovered that Biden wanted to open the borders because I never believed it. It makes no sense at all. The first time I really saw this was when he didn't want to install the wall that had already been built, and the hundreds of miles of additional work that could have been completed in three weeks.

I want to talk about your plans to build the wall in the short term, but let's return to the previous topic. So, do you commit to complying with all Supreme Court orders? All orders supported by the Supreme Court?

Trump: Yes, I certainly will comply. I have great respect for the Supreme Court.

Let's talk about the border wall because during your last term, you tried to negotiate with Democrats Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer over border funding and had the opportunity to secure $25 billion. But the negotiations failed. Ultimately, you only got $1.4 billion—

Trump: But with that $25 billion, things became unacceptable.

To codify protections for "Dreamers"—

Trump: Well, there are many other things. There are many bad things. Of course, they gave you money to build the wall. You know, I basically took money from the military. I think this is an invasion of our country, I—

So my question is, what do you plan to do in your second term? Will you use federal funds to continue building the wall on day one? Do you plan to legislate? How do you plan to do it?

Trump: I think what we need to do is finish—when you and I talk about finishing the wall, I built much more wall than I thought I would. But in the process of building, you find that you need it. We built it and then found that there were gaps in certain places, and they would leak. Just like politicians leak, they will leak too. We discovered this problem, then built it, and then built other things. It's just a system; we have a good system. We could have added another 200 miles of wall and good territory. Because the wall really works, you know, walls and wheels. I would say, you know, a lot of things, look at what you have here, your recorder, other things will be outdated in about six months. You will have better things. But there are two things that will never go out of style, and that is walls and wheels.

You just said, "We want to protect the police from prosecution." What do you mean by that?

Trump: The police—they have been stripped of their authority. If they do something wrong, even if they do it well, they will have their houses, pensions seized, I mean, they will ultimately lose their families because of it. They have been stripped of everything. They are suing others. We must give the police the power and respect they deserve. Now, mistakes will inevitably happen, and there will inevitably be some bad people, which is a terrible thing. But the current situation is worse; when a department store is being robbed, the police stand outside while 500 young people swagger out of the store, taking air conditioners, TVs, and other things. The police want to take action. But they are told not to intervene. They are told to stay out of it. If you intervene, if you stop the crime, we will threaten your pension, your house, your family, your wife or husband. You know, the police are often sued. We want them to be immune from prosecution if they do their duty.

Will you try to pass a law in Congress?

Trump: Sorry.

Will you push Congress to pass a bill to do this?

Trump: We’ll have to see.

Let's turn to the economy, sir. You impose a 10% tariff on all imported goods and over 60% on imports from China. Can I ask you now: is this your plan?

Trump: Possibly more than that. It may just be part of it. But there are always people—look at them coming in, they are stealing our jobs, stealing our wealth, stealing our country.

But you are saying more than that: are you saying you will impose tariffs of over 10% on all imported goods?

Trump: Over 10%, yes. I call it a "circular tariff." We have a circular country. Besides what we mentioned, there are also reciprocal tariffs. If we do this, the numbers are staggering. I don't think it will have a huge impact because they make a lot of money off us. I also don't think costs will rise that much. Many people say, "Oh, that will be a tax on us." I don't believe that. I think it's a tax on the country. I know. I made billions from China. No one had ever done anything about China before. I also made people aware of the threat from China. China makes $500 to $600 billion a year, and before me, no one mentioned China. The situation in Detroit is very sad because the mandates for electric vehicles are ridiculous since they can't go very far. They are too expensive, and they will be produced in China. They will all be produced in China.

Mr. President, most economists—I know not all, but most economists say tariffs will raise prices.

Trump: Yes.

Are you willing to accept inflation?

Trump: No, I have seen it. I see some—I don't think this will lead to inflation. I think this is not a loss for our country. Because what will happen is that other countries will do very well, and China is one of the leaders. India is hard to deal with. India—I get along well with Modi, but it's hard to deal with them on trade. Frankly, France is very difficult to deal with on trade. Brazil is also very hard to deal with. Their approach is to charge high import fees. They say, we don't want you to ship cars to Brazil, and we don't want you to ship cars to China or India. But if you want to build factories in our country and hire our workers, that's fine. This is basically what I am doing. I am doing it and pushing hard, but when we were ready to really start, we encountered the COVID pandemic. We had to deal with that. Ultimately, our stock market performance is much better than it was when COVID first appeared. But if you look at our performance in the first few years, the numbers are staggering. No economy—

Sir, there is no doubt that the economy was indeed very good during your first term. But Moody's did say that your trade war with China cost the U.S. economy $316 billion and resulted in the loss of 300,000 jobs. [Editor’s note: The estimate of $316 billion was made by Bloomberg Economics, not Moody's.]

Trump: Yes. Moody's doesn't know what they are talking about. We have the strongest economy in history. Moody's also acknowledges that. If we have such a good economy, how could there be losses? Everyone acknowledges that. If we hadn't done this, we wouldn't have a steel industry now. They were dumping steel into this country. I imposed a 50% tariff on steel. The tariffs will go up. My favorite people are businesses, especially those in the steel industry. They love me because I saved their industry. The owners and executives of steel companies cry when they see me. They say, no one helped us before you came along. China was dumping a lot of steel into our country. We saved the steel industry.

Do you think businesses will pass the tax costs onto consumers?

Trump: No, I don't think so. I think this will cost the country— I think their revenues will decrease. In fact, I believe the taxed country's revenues will decrease. I don't believe—

You don't believe businesses will pass on the costs?

Trump: No, I think the situation is that you manufactured. The way to get out of the whole predicament is that you ultimately manufactured, rather than importing products from China, because of the extra costs, you ultimately produce products in the U.S. Traditionally, that's how it is. If you look at what has happened. If you look at China, they don't want our cars. They charge exorbitant fees. Look at India. India is a great example. I get along well with the representatives of the Indian people. Modi is a good guy, and he is doing what he has to do. But we had some issues with Harley-Davidson, and I had the people from Harley-Davidson come to the White House. I said, "How have you been lately? Is business good? Is everything okay?" I said, "Out of curiosity, how are you handling your relationship with India?" "Not very well." Now you have to remember, this was five years ago, four years ago, they said, "Not very well. We can't do business with India because they charge us such high tariffs, over 100%." At those prices, you know, consumers will collapse and can't buy. They said, "But they are willing to do anything for us to establish a Harley-Davidson factory in India. They don't want us to sell motorcycles to India, but they do want us to build a factory." I said, "Well, I'm not too happy about that." But ultimately, it happened. They built a factory in India. Now there are no tariffs, and we want to do the same thing. We want to build factories here. Now some things are happening that no one is talking about, and maybe they don't know, but I have a friend who builds car factories. That's what he does. If you let him build a simple apartment somewhere, he doesn't know how to do it. But he can build factories, millions of square feet, the largest factories in the world. He is incredible. I said to him, "I want to see your factory." He said to me, "Well, are you ready to go to Mexico? Are you ready to go to China?" I said, "No, I want to see it here." He said, "We actually don't build factories here; the big factories are not built here; the big factories are now being built in Mexico or China." China is now building factories in Mexico to produce cars for the U.S. These factories are the largest in the world. If I were president, this wouldn't happen because I would impose a 100% tariff on them. Because I won't allow them to steal our other businesses. You know, Mexico has taken 31% of our automotive manufacturing and automotive business. And China has an even larger share than that. We have a tiny share in this business, and then you have a poor fool, like this gentleman in the United Auto Workers, who agrees to let us produce purely electric vehicles, which is really sad because purely electric vehicles are not what consumers want.

Sir, I understand your position—

Trump: By the way, I have no problem with purely electric vehicles. I think it's great. You can buy electric vehicles; I think that's good. They don't go far. They have problems. They don't work in cold weather. They don't work in hot weather. There are many issues. When I was in Iowa, there were electric vehicles everywhere. They were all over the streets. The temperature on Iowa caucus night was minus 40 degrees.

I was with you then.

Trump: That's right. I had never heard of such low temperatures.

I want to clarify what you just said: are you considering imposing a 100% tariff on goods imported from China and Mexico?

Trump: I didn't say that. They charge us a 100% tariff. But their tariffs are much higher than that. India charges us higher tariffs than that. What are the tariffs from Brazil—Brazil is a very, very high-tariff country. I ask people, who is the hardest to deal with? I won't tell you because I don't want to insult those countries because I actually get along with them very well. But you would be surprised. The EU is very tough on us. They don't accept our foreign products. They don't accept our cars. We accept Mercedes-Benz, Volkswagen, and BMW. They don't accept our cars. If we want to sell Chevrolets, or even want to sell a nice Cadillac Escalade, if we want to sell our cars in Germany, for example, they won't accept them.

We'll return to the topic of Europe later.

Trump: I said to Angela Merkel, "Angela, how many Chevrolets are there in downtown Berlin?" She said none. I said, "You're right. But we buy your cars, including relatively less expensive cars like Volkswagens." I said, "Do you think that's fair?" She said, "Maybe it's not fair, but until you came along, no one ever mentioned it."

Sir, you have criticized the way Israel has waged war against Hamas. In a recent interview, you said Israel needs to "end the war" and "return to normal."

Trump: Yes.

So as president, would you consider stopping military aid to Israel to force it to end the war?

Trump: Okay. Let me start from the inside. [Let the assistant turn down the air conditioning.] I don't have to start from scratch. But as you know, Iran was bankrupt at that time. Iran is—

No, I know, but can you—

Trump: No, but think about how great a job I did. This wouldn't have happened. You wouldn't have—Hamas has no money. You know?

I understand, sir, I just want to know—

Trump: No, but I would like to point out. During my tenure, there were reports that Iran had no money to give to anyone—terrorism was minimal. We didn't have it. I had four years—we had no terrorism. We didn't have the World Trade Center destroyed. You know, Bush once said, "Well, we are a safe country." I said they destroyed the World Trade Center during your term. Do you remember that debate? That was a good example. But it's true, absolutely true. But we didn't experience terrorism—we got rid of ISIS 100%. Now they are starting to come back.

I want to know—you said you want Israel to end the war. You said it needs to "wrap this up." How do you plan to do that? Will you consider stopping aid?

Trump: I think Israel is doing a very poor job in public relations. I don't think the Israeli Defense Fund or any other organization should be releasing photos of buildings collapsing every night, and there may be people inside those buildings, and they are doing this every night.

So you don't rule out the possibility of suspending or limiting aid?

Trump: No, I—we have to do this. Listen, no president has done what I have done for Israel. Look at everything I have done, starting with the Iran nuclear deal. You know, Netanyahu begged Obama not to make that deal. I terminated that deal. If they were smart and energetic, besides trying to woo Trump, they could have made a deal because they were in a bad position at that time. They should have made a deal with Iran. They didn't sue. They didn't make a deal. But I did the Golan Heights.

You did.

Trump: No one even thought about the Golan Heights. I gave them the Golan Heights. I built the embassy in Jerusalem. Jerusalem became the capital. I built the embassy.

Right.

Trump: The embassy is beautiful, and it cost less than anyone imagined. You've heard that too. But no president has done what I have done for Israel. Interestingly, the Israeli people appreciate this. My approval rating is as high as 98%, the highest.

Do you know whose approval rating is not high in Israel now?

Trump: Bibi.

Yes. Do you think he should step down?

Trump: Well, I had an unpleasant experience with Bibi. It had to do with Soleimani because, as you may know, he pulled out before the attack. I said, "What is going on?" Because it was supposed to be a joint operation, and suddenly we were told Israel was out. I was very unhappy about that. I will never forget that. It made me understand some things. I want to say that what happened on October 7 should not have happened.

It happened during his term.

Trump: No, it happened during his term. I think, despite all this, it has had a profound impact on him. Because people will say that should not have happened. They had the most advanced equipment. They could have stopped all of this. Many people know about it, thousands of people know, but Israel didn't know, and I think he bears primary responsibility for that. Now there’s another hostage situation—

Is his time over?

Trump: I happen to think that when it comes to hostages, understanding the enemy and understanding the hostages, I think there are very few hostages left. You know, they talk about all these kidnapped hostages. I don't believe these people have the capability or the desire to take care of hostages in negotiations. I don't think—I think the number of hostages will be far less than people imagine, which is a very sad thing.

Do you think that in a second term, your cooperation with Benny Gantz would be better than your cooperation with Netanyahu?

Trump: I think Benny Gantz is good, but I don't want to say that. I haven't talked to him about this. But I know some very good people in Israel who could do well.

You think—

Trump: What I want to say is that Netanyahu is rightly criticized for what happened on October 7.

Do you think the outcome of the war between Israel and Hamas should be a two-state solution between Israelis and Palestinians?

Trump: Most people think it will be a two-state solution. I'm not sure if a two-state solution is still feasible. Everyone is talking about two states, even when I was there. I said, "What do you like here? Do you like the two-state solution?" Now people are going back to—it depends on where you are. It changes every day. If Israel makes progress, they don't want a two-state solution. They want everything. If Israel doesn't make progress, sometimes they talk about a two-state solution. The two-state solution seems to be the most favored idea, policy, or concept among people.

Do you like it?

Trump: It depends on when. There was a time when I thought a two-state solution was feasible. Now I think a two-state solution will be very, very difficult. I think it will be even harder to achieve. I also think there are fewer people who like the idea. Four years ago, many people liked the idea. Today, there are far fewer people who like the idea.

You said—

Trump: There may not be any other ideas left. You know, some people say this situation is the hardest to resolve, the hardest to solve.

Yes, absolutely.

Trump: Because children are taught to hate Jews as they grow up, the level of hatred is unimaginable to anyone. I have a friend, a very good friend, Sheldon Adelson, who believes that reaching an agreement is impossible because the level of hatred is too deep. I think the level of hatred on both sides is much greater, but the level of hatred towards Jews is very high, starting from kindergarten. He felt this—he is a great dealmaker. He is a very wealthy man. He is wealthy because he has the ability to make deals. He loves Israel more than anything. He loves Israel, and he wants to protect Israel. He feels that due to the deep level of hatred, it is impossible to reach an agreement.

Do you feel that way now?

Trump: I disagree. But so far, he hasn't been wrong.

You have said you are proud to be the first president in generations not to have gotten the U.S. involved in a war. You touched on this at a press conference. But if Iran and Israel go to war, would you stand with Israel?

Trump: I am very loyal to Israel, more loyal than any other president. I have done more for Israel than any other president. Yes, I would protect Israel.

You said this week that the issue of abortion should be decided by the states, and you indicated that you would not sign a federal ban. So, I want to confirm: would you veto any bill that imposes federal restrictions on abortion?

Trump: You don't need a federal ban. We just got rid of the federal ban. You know, if you go back to Roe v. Wade, the focus of Roe v. Wade was—not so much about abortion, but about bringing it back to the states. So, the states will negotiate a deal. Florida will be different from Georgia, and Georgia will be different from other places. But that’s the situation now. It’s very interesting. But remember, for 53 years, every legal scholar has pointed out from a legal perspective that the issue of abortion belongs to the states. Now, things are starting to move in that direction. People are starting to focus on 15 weeks, 5 weeks, or 6 weeks, and starting to focus on time limits. They suddenly start to decide the definition of abortion.

People want to know, if a bill comes to your desk, would you veto it? This really matters to a lot of voters.

Trump: But you have to remember this, that situation will never happen because it simply won't happen. You can never get 60 votes. Neither the Democrats nor the Republicans will be able to do that for many years to come. Right now, it’s basically 50-50. I think we have a chance to gain a few seats, but a few seats means we get 51 or 52 seats. We have a long way to go. So that won't happen because you won't get those seats. Well. But that said, it depends on the states, it depends on the power of the states. The states will make their own decisions.

Do you think—

Trump: You know? This relieves a huge amount of pressure from everyone. But we—this definition is unclear. To be honest, Republicans, many Republicans, don’t know how to talk about this issue. This issue has never affected me.

So, to be clear: if there are federal restrictions—federal abortion restrictions, you won't commit to vetoing that bill?

Trump: I don’t have to commit to vetoing because that situation will never happen—first, it will never happen. Second, it’s about the rights of the states. You don’t want to go back to the federal government. This is all about getting rid of the federal government. Eric, this issue has been resolved because—this issue has been resolved, and in the past week, this issue has been greatly simplified. It was originally about getting rid of the federal government. The last thing you want to do is go back to the federal government. The states are working to solve this issue. Look at Ohio. Ohio has passed some bills that surprised people a bit. Kansas, I mean, these places are conservative Trump states, Ohio and Kansas, all these states, but they passed what they wanted to pass. It’s about states' rights.

I understand, sir. Your allies in the Republican Study Committee (which makes up about 80% of the Republican core group) have included the "Life at Conception Act" in their 2025 budget proposal. This bill would grant full legal rights to embryos. Is this also your position?

Trump: Say that again. What?

The "Life at Conception Act" would grant full legal rights to embryos, including in their 2025 budget proposal. Is this your position?

Trump: I will leave everything to the states. The situations in the states will be different. Some will agree, some will disagree. Texas and Ohio will be different.

Would you veto that bill?

Trump: I don’t have to do anything about veto power because we have now restored veto power in the states.

Okay.

Trump: They will make those decisions.

Do you think women should be able to access the abortion pill mifepristone?

Trump: Well, I have views on this, but I won’t explain. I’m not planning to say anything about it right now. But I have very strong views on this. I might release something next week.

Mr. President, this is a big issue because your allies are calling for the enforcement of the Comstock Act, which prohibits mailing drugs used for abortion. The Biden Justice Department has not enforced that law. Would your Justice Department enforce it?

Trump: I will make a statement on this in the next 14 days.

Will you?

Trump: Yes, I have an important statement on this. I am very firm on this.

Understood. You believe this issue should be left to the states to handle. You have made that very clear. If states decide to punish women who have abortions after they are banned, would you feel comfortable with that?

Trump: You mean weeks?

Yes. Assuming the ban on abortion is at 15 weeks—

Trump: Again, that will be—I don’t have to feel comfortable or uncomfortable. The states will make the decisions. The states must feel comfortable or uncomfortable, not me.

Do you think states should monitor women’s pregnancies to know if they have abortions after the ban?

Trump: I think they might do that. Again, you have to communicate with the states. Roe v. Wade was about returning the right to abortion to the states. It is both a legal decision and possibly a moral decision in some people's minds. But primarily, it is a legal decision. Every legal scholar, Democrat, Republican, and others want to return this issue to the states. You know, Roe v. Wade has always been considered very bad law. Very bad. From a legal perspective, it is a very bad issue. People are surprised it has lasted this long. All I can do is choose some very good people, frankly, who are very brave, and the judges will ultimately be Republicans—

The states will decide whether they are satisfied—

Trump: Yes, the states—

Will sue women who have abortions after the ban. But do you feel satisfied with that?

Trump: The states will say. Whether I am satisfied is not important. It doesn’t matter at all because the states will make the decisions. By the way, the situation in Texas will be different from Ohio. The situation in Ohio will also be different from Michigan. I see what is happening.

President Trump, we are in Florida. You are a resident of Florida.

Trump: Yes.

How do you plan to vote in the abortion referendum in the state this November, which will overturn DeSantis's six-week ban?

Trump: Well, I said I think six weeks is too harsh.

You did say that.

Trump: I did say that before.

Yes.

Trump: I think when I made that statement, it was still quite controversial, but over time, it has become less controversial. I think Ron was very seriously hurt by doing this because people—even conservative women in Florida think—

Well, this referendum will change everything. Will you vote for it in November?

Trump: Well, it will bring other implications. I won’t tell you how I will vote. I just tell you that the state government will make the decision.

Okay, sir. Violent crime is declining across the country. It has decreased by 6%—

Trump: I don’t believe that.

You don’t believe it?

Trump: Yes, that’s fake data.

You think so?

Trump: Well, that was released last night. The FBI gave false numbers.

I haven’t seen it, but the FBI says it decreased by 13% in 2023. [Editor’s note: This statistic specifically refers to homicides.]

Trump: I don’t believe it. That’s a lie. That’s fake news.

Sir, this data is collected by police departments across the country and local police departments. Most of them support you. Are they wrong?

Trump: Yes. Last night. Well, maybe, maybe not. The FBI manipulated the data, and others manipulated the data too. The crime rate could not have gone down last year. It’s impossible because of immigrant crime. Did they count immigrant crime in that? Or do they think it’s a different form of crime?

So, are these local police departments wrong?

Trump: I don't think this is coming from local police departments. What I see is that the FBI provided false numbers.

Well then, if elected, would you instruct your Attorney General to prosecute your state officials, like Alvin Bragg and Fani Willis?

Trump: Well, we will look into a lot of things like they did. What they are doing is terrible. No, I don't want to do that. Looking at Clinton, I'm not happy. I think it's a terrible thing. But unfortunately, what they did was just lift the lid, and they—what they did to me is unbelievable. Groundless.

You have said that Alvin Bragg should be prosecuted. Would you instruct the Attorney General to prosecute him?

Trump: When did I say Alvin Bragg should be prosecuted?

At a rally.

Trump: I don't remember saying that.

I can pull it up.

Trump: No.

So, to be clear: you will not instruct the Attorney General to prosecute Alvin Bragg?

Trump: We will achieve great returns through success. We will make our country successful again. Our returns will come through the success of the nation.

Would you fire a U.S. attorney who does not prosecute someone you ordered him or her to prosecute?

Trump: Honestly, it depends on the situation.

So you might?

Trump: It depends on the situation. Yes.

Well, sir, you have said you would appoint a real special prosecutor to investigate Biden and his family—

Trump: It depends on the Supreme Court's ruling. The president should have immunity, including Biden. If they rule that he does not have immunity, then I believe Biden could be prosecuted for 20 different actions because he created those actions. You not only have to look at the large sums of money he received, the criminal acts of becoming a Manchurian candidate. You also have to look at what happened in Afghanistan. Look at what is happening around the world. Look at how he allowed Russia to act against Ukraine. That would never happen to me, and it hasn't happened. And I know Putin very well.

President Trump, in a banana republic, isn't it customary for political opponents to attack each other?

Trump: That's how it is now. Yes.

Well—

Trump: No, no, no, no. Eric, that's how it is now. I have to—actually, we are doing this today because Monday is a bit difficult because I have to go to criminal court on Monday.

Right.

Trump: About a non-criminal case. This isn't even a criminal case. Like I said, if you go to Andy McCarthy or Jonathan Turley, two real experts, or go to all the legal scholars who have written books, they will say this isn't even a criminal case. I have a judge who has more conflicts than any judge anyone has ever seen. He is a little man who hates Trump. Look at what is happening there. You just asked me, you know, you just asked me a question, and they are doing this to me!

Well, sir, to be clear—

Trump: Wait a minute, I haven't had a chance to do that to them. I tend not to do that. I don't want to do that to them. But it largely depends on the Supreme Court. We are going to the Supreme Court in two weeks. They will rule on presidential immunity. If they say the president does not have immunity, then I believe Biden will be prosecuted for all crimes because he has committed many crimes. If they say the president has immunity, and I happen to believe the president must have immunity, otherwise it is just a ceremonial position. But Biden has done many bad things. I'm not even talking about obvious crimes. I'm talking about the border issue, allowing deaths and destruction to happen at the border—

Sir—

Trump: Allowing all these things to happen. So when you ask me this question, it depends on the Supreme Court's decision.

On this issue, your lawyer John Shaul recently argued in court that if you, as president, ordered Navy SEALs to assassinate a political opponent, you should not be prosecuted. Do you agree with your lawyer's view?

Trump: Well, my understanding is different. I think this is a political opponent from another country. I think my understanding is different; I'm not sure. John Shaul also said that first you have to go through impeachment and then make a decision based on impeachment. But the president, if you do not have a strong immunity from prosecution, that is a different situation. That could be one of them.

Understood. So, back to what you just said, I want to formally state that there is no evidence that President Biden instructed to prosecute you. But even if we—

Trump: Oh, there certainly is.

Well, even if we stipulate—

Trump: I always hate when reporters say things like that. They know it's wrong. Just to protect themselves. But that's not the case. His head of the Justice Department, one of the few high-ranking officials, was placed in the Justice Department. Fani, Mr. Wade, Fani's lover, spent a lot of time in Washington working on my case with the Justice Department. The Justice Department is working on my case with Letitia James. The Justice Department is working with crazy Jack Smith. He is a lunatic, very interested in my case. No, no, this is all Biden's fault—

But the question is—

Trump: By the way, let me go a little deeper.

Okay.

Trump: In my case with a woman, I never—until she called, I didn't know who she was. "Do you know her?" I said, "This is something she made up."

Are you talking about E. Jean Carroll?

Trump: Then I was sued. Before that, I didn't know who this woman was; I had no relationship with her. This was done by a political lawyer in front of a judge who, in my view, is completely inappropriate, who has conflicts of interest for many reasons, who does not allow us to present evidence, he is too bad, too evil. But I have encountered three judges like this in New York, three. This is what I get. This is a very unfair situation. They are targeting me, and this is called election interference. But what they are doing goes beyond election interference; they have never seen it. I'm a bit surprised; you say Biden knows nothing. Biden knows everything. Just like he knows nothing about Tucker and his business.

Even if we stipulate this, do two wrongs make a right?

Trump: No, I don't want to, I don't want to do anything related to… I don't want to hurt Biden. I don't want to hurt him. I respect this position too much. But he is willing to hurt a very popular former president who received 75 million votes. I received more votes than any sitting president in history. I currently have about eight cases inspired by them, including my civil case.

Healthcare—

Jason Miller: Eric, the president has dinner in 15 minutes. So he has a few minutes left.

Trump: Are you staying? Are you going to have dinner with everyone?

Yes, yes. Do we only have 15 minutes left?

Trump: Yes, his dinner time is 7:15.

In that case, let's do some rapid-fire questions.

Trump: Okay. Do you think you could accept an interview with Biden?

You know, he hasn't agreed. So I appreciate you giving me this opportunity.

Trump: He will never agree because he is wrong. He is ridiculously wrong.

Let's take some time to talk about January 6. You referred to those prosecuted for their actions on January 6 as "hostages" and "political prisoners." Over 800 of them have been sentenced through our judicial system, most of whom pleaded guilty. Some have been convicted by a jury. You have said you would pardon them. Do you question the judicial system's outcomes in over 800 cases?

Trump: This is a two-tier system. Because when I see Portland, Minneapolis, they took over police stations and everything else, and rushed federal buildings, when I see other violent incidents, people being killed, and they did nothing. They did nothing. I think this is a double judicial system. I think it is a very, very sad thing. Whether you like it or not, besides Ashley, no one else died.

Would you consider pardoning all of them?

Trump: I would consider it, yes.

Would you?

Trump: Yes, of course.

Well then—

Trump: If someone is an evil bad person, I would look at it differently. But many of these people were led in, many were led in. You see from the tapes, the police led them in. They walked with the police.

I want to ask you one more question on this. There are some former allies and staff who do not support you running for this election and point to your attempts to overturn the 2020 election. What do you have to say to those voters who like your policies but believe that attacking the cornerstone of democracy (the peaceful transfer of power) means they cannot be entrusted to uphold democracy?

Trump: In fact, I did the exact opposite. I was the one trying to stop it. I offered 10,000 soldiers, and Nancy Pelosi refused. The mayor of Washington also refused; she refused in writing.

But what do you say to those voters?

Trump: I put it out there. First, I gave a peaceful and patriotic speech, but no one reported it. No one talked about: peaceful and patriotic. No one talked about it. You have to know that the committee never used those words. They refused to allow those words to be used. Second, I had about five tweets that said "go home" and things like that. I was disqualified because of those tweets.

No—

Trump: No, I was disqualified because of those tweets. I was disqualified not because I said something bad, but because I said something good. Because when you read my tweets, see my speeches, listen to my statements made in the Rose Garden Oval Office, you will know that in this very dramatic and terrible time, I was a very innocent person. Nancy Pelosi is responsible for this because she refused to accept the 10,000 soldiers or National Guard members I offered. She refused to accept them. The mayor of Washington also refused to accept them. They are responsible for the capital.

Speaking of which, looking ahead—

Trump: Another very terrible thing they did is that the media refused to talk about it. They destroyed all the evidence.

Are you worried about political violence occurring during the elections this November?

Trump: No, I don't think there will be political violence.

You don't expect anything?

Trump: I think we will achieve a major victory. I don't think there will be violence.

Mr. President, you have talked a lot about plans to eliminate the deep state. What does that actually mean?

Trump: It means we want to clear out the bad people and those who are underperforming in government. We look at these people like a company looks at its employees. You know, when you buy a company, you go in and see how you think the job is going? Job performance. They have job performance standards. Yes, we want to clear out those who are underperforming. There are many such people.

How do you plan to do that? Your team is preparing to empower you through Schedule F to allow you to fire civil servants.

Trump: We are considering many different things. The civil service has its pros and cons. Some protected people shouldn't be protected at all. And there are some people who perform excellently, and you almost want to protect them. I know many civil servants who are outstanding talents.

Would you hire someone who believes Joe Biden won the 2020 election?

Trump: I have no doubt that what we are saying is true. The news media, the fake news media, do not want to talk about it. You know, I sued the Pulitzer Foundation over the Russia, Russia, Russia hoax because they talked about it for two and a half years, and it turned out to be a complete scam. Then certain writers won Nobel Prizes—

The Republican National Committee is conducting a litmus test on employees, asking them if they believe the election was stolen. Would you do that? [Editor’s note: The RNC has reportedly asked this question of job applicants, but it denies that it is a litmus test for employment.]

Trump: I wouldn't be happy about that because I don't think anyone believes the election was stolen. The facts are clear. The scope of election fraud is very broad, and state legislatures have not passed legislation. They must pass legislation. You look closely, the scope is very broad, with all sorts of different things. I can give you report after report from state after state about election fraud, and if you really want to listen, you would say I am right.

I want to talk about your policy on Russia and Ukraine right away, but President Trump, Evan Gershkovich has been detained in Russia for a year now. Why haven't you called for his release?

Trump: I think it's because I have a lot to do. I have hundreds of things to do. And I may have said a lot of good things about him. Maybe it hasn't been reported. But I think he is a very brave young man.

Would you do that now?

Trump: Are you talking about The Wall Street Journal?

Yes.

Trump: Oh, I would certainly call. If you want, I will call right now and ask that this be mentioned in your report.

That would be great.

Trump: But I do have a lot, a lot to do. The difference between me and Biden is: I would get him released. He would be released. Putin would release him.

Can we talk about—

Trump: I think Biden's relationship with Putin is very bad. Putin should not have gone into Ukraine. He had a good relationship with me for four years. I got along very well with Putin, but the journalist should be released, and he will be released. I don't know if he will be released during Biden's presidency.

But as president, would you work to get him released?

Trump: Yes, I would get him released.

You have said about Russia—

Trump: I am surprised Biden would do that. I am not surprised by anything Biden does. But I think it sets a bad precedent. I am surprised he hasn't been released, but if he hasn't been released by the time we take office, I would get him released.

Sir, you have said that for NATO countries that are underinvesting in defense, you would let Russia "do what it wants." If Putin attacks a NATO country that you believe is underinvesting in defense, would the U.S. assist that country?

Trump: Yes, that statement was very meaningful because I want them to pay a price. I want them to pay. This was put forward as a negotiating condition. I said, listen, if you don't pay, then good luck to you. I mean it. Someone asked me: What if we don't pay? This question was asked of me long before this event. You know, after I said that, you know, there were billions of dollars put into NATO, right?

I know, sir. Secretary Stoltenberg appreciated that. He said you threatened to withdraw from NATO,

Trump: That's right.

Which led allies to invest an additional $100 billion in defense.

Trump: It was the same then as it is now, three years ago. You know NATO—they have very little money left. They have no cash, they are on the brink of bankruptcy, and we are spending almost 100% of the money on NATO. We are protecting Europe. And they aren't even paying.

The question is, would you—

Trump: Only 8 countries are paying. The rest are in arrears. I told them, if you don't pay, then enjoy yourselves, but we won't protect you. I said that a few weeks ago, two months ago. I said, if you don't pay. Listen, this is how a negotiator negotiates. I negotiate because I want them to pay. I want Europe to pay. I want nothing bad to happen to Europe; I love Europe, I love the people of Europe, I have a good relationship with Europe. But they have taken advantage of us, whether it is NATO or the Ukraine issue. We have invested billions of dollars more in Ukraine than they have. It shouldn't be that way. It should be the other way around. Because they are more affected. There is an ocean between us. They don't have that. I say this to negotiate, and I do it well because recently billions of dollars have come in.

In a 2016 interview, you said, "To reform, you have to be willing to let go."

Trump: I said, for example, this issue came up when we had a very secret meeting, but the media knew about it. There were 28 countries present at the time. A gentleman stood up, and he happened to be the head of a very important country. He said, "Are you saying"—because I told him, "You don't pay the bills, and we pay for you. This is not fair. You are hurting us in trade. Worse, we are protecting you. We spend most of our money on NATO and the U.S." I said this is not fair. That person stood up and said, "Are you saying if we don't pay the bills, if we don't pay the bills, and Russia attacks us, you won't protect us?" I said, that is exactly what I mean.

After I said that, billions of dollars flowed in. It was like magic. Obama never said anything like that. Obama would come, give a speech, and leave. Bush would come, give a speech, and leave. I looked at the data and said, wait a minute, the U.S. is paying for NATO. We are paying nearly 100% of NATO's funding.

But the question is, sir—

Trump: We are not being treated fairly because we are being treated badly in trade by most countries.

So, you seem to want to renegotiate the terms of the treaties. You want to—

Trump: No, I just want them to pay. I don't need to renegotiate. Just like Biden. Biden has the right to close the border immediately. He doesn't need anything from Congress. NATO is the same. I don't need to renegotiate the terms of the treaties. All I need to do is get them to pay. They are not paying.

Do you want to maintain America's 80-year leadership in defending the West, especially Europe, or do you want to change the post-war world structure that has kept us out of world wars for the past 80 years?

Trump: I want them to pay. It's that simple. NATO is good. You see, my problem with NATO is that I don't think NATO will come to defend us if we have a problem.

You don't think so?

Trump: No, I don't believe that. I know them. Even if they pay, it is a one-way street. I want them to pay. But I believe that if we are attacked, NATO will not step in. Many NATO countries will not step in.

Would you continue to provide military and humanitarian aid to Ukraine?

Trump: I would do my best to help Ukraine, but Europe must also step up and take responsibility. They have not taken responsibility. Europe has not paid its fair share.

Orban said he came here to see you and said you wouldn't give a dime. Is he right?

Trump: No, I said unless Europe starts treating us fairly, I won't give a dime. They must come. Europe must pay. We have taken on more than European countries. This is very unfair to us. I said if Europe doesn't pay, then who is more affected than us? If Europe doesn't pay, why should we pay?

So you might not aid Ukraine?

Trump: Listen, we are being hurt in trade. We are being hurt in trade. The EU is very tough on us in trade. We talked about it; they don't want our cars, they don't want our agricultural products, they don't want anything from us. It's like a one-way street. NATO is the same. They are very unfair to us. They don't pay the bills. Now that I am here, they are starting to pay the bills. I tell you, Secretary Stoltenberg has said, I hope he says it again now, but he certainly said it loud and clear at the time, he has never seen power like Trump. Because every president would come, give a speech, and leave. Trump came and brought billions of dollars to us. I got hundreds of billions from those countries that were in arrears. He is my biggest fan. I hope he still is, but I don't know if he still is; you know, maybe he is, maybe he isn't. But even recently, right? Because you asked me a question. This question has two parts. One was four years ago, and one is now. I have done a great job raising funds for NATO because no one—NATO has no money. NATO can't even sue them for what they are doing now. They have no money. All they are doing is building stupid office buildings. They built a $3 billion office building.

Taiwan—

Miller: Eric, Eric, I have to wrap this up because his dinner is coming.

Can we do a quick Q&A because—

Miller: Eric, I have three minutes until dinner starts.

Okay, you said—

Trump: By the way, do you understand what I just said?

I understand, I understand.

Trump: He spent $3 billion hiring the same architect—

Time is limited, let's go straight to the rapid-fire questions.

Trump: Do you understand?

I understand, Mr. President. You said you only want to be a dictator for a day. What do you mean by that?

Trump: That was a joke directed at Sean Hannity. He said, "Do you want to be a dictator?" I said, "Just for a day. I want to close the border, I want to drill, baby, drill." Then I said, "After that, I don't want to be a dictator anymore." That's it. It was a joke. Everyone knows.

You know why?—well, you say you were joking, but do you know why?—

Trump: No, no, wait. If you read it, it was a joke. I want to be president for a day. You know why? Because we have an incompetent fool who allows people to enter our country. We have an incompetent fool who has pushed energy prices so high in such a short time. By the way, you know, he has adopted many of my policies now. But the day after the election, if they win, there will be no more oil.

Do you understand why so many Americans see language like that, you know, a day dictator, suspending the Constitution—

Trump: I think a lot of people like it.

But do you know why they think it goes against the democratic principles we hold most dear?

Trump: No, I think the media thinks that. Not because they don't understand; they understand just like you do, just like anyone else. That statement was made in jest, in sarcasm, in a sarcastic way.

Just four words—

Trump: Just like "Russia, if you're listening." Remember "Russia, if you're listening"?

Yes.

Trump: That statement means exactly the same. "Russia, if you're listening." Everyone knows that statement was sarcastic. But they cut off the laughter. You know, they immediately cut off the laughter. As soon as it was said, it was cut off. But that statement was sarcastic, it was a joke, it was a joke. It's the same thing. I said, "I want to be a dictator for a day, I want to close the border. I want to drill, baby, drill." Then I said, "After that, I don't want to be a dictator anymore." Now—

You did say that.

Trump: Yes. But no one reported it.

Well, we have the opportunity to talk and get the full truth, and that’s what I want to do.

Trump: But you should understand what I mean.

I know what you mean.

Trump: I hope you report this. Because that statement was indeed made.

I give you the opportunity to respond.

Trump: Good. That statement was made with a laugh, Eric. I was laughing. Sean Hannity asked me that question.

However, that can scare people, sir. It can frighten them.

Trump: I don't understand why that would be. Everyone, anyone who saw it would say I was laughing at the time. He was laughing. The whole room was laughing. You know, that was a town hall?

I saw it.

Trump: The people in the town hall were laughing hysterically. It was just a joke.

Out of the 44 people who served in your cabinet last time, only 4 are supporting you in this election. [Editor’s note: During the interview, about six former Trump cabinet members supported him.] You know, some people have come out and said they won't support you in this election.

Trump: I don't know. Like who? I have a lot of support. I have the support of Mnuchin!

Your former Chief of Staff, former Secretary of Defense—

Trump: Well, I don't know. You see, what I mean is—

But the question is, why should voters—

Trump: Well, wait a minute. Just this week, Mnuchin supported me. Pompeo supports me too. Who are these people? I mean, some people don't support me because I think they are not that great. You see, when people feel you don't like them, and you won't bring them back. I won't bring back a lot of those people. I have some great people, and I have some bad ones. When they feel unwelcome and that they won't be brought back, they are unwilling to support.

Well, sir, what I want to ask is, why should voters trust you?

Trump: I have a lot of people supporting me.

You have received a lot—

Miller: I will send him the full list.

You have received a lot of support. I don't question that. But the question I must ask is—

Trump: No, I am serious. There are many people in the cabinet who support me. Now, I must tell you, I didn't ask a lot of people to support me.

They came to you voluntarily. I know, sir.

Trump: If I called 95% of the people you mentioned, just one call, they would support me in two minutes.

What I want to ask is: since during your first term, many of those closest to you think you shouldn't be re-elected, why should voters trust you?

Trump: Well, they don't like me because I don't like them. Some of those people I fired. Bill Barr, I fired Bill Barr. I didn't want him. Others, I think he did a terrible job. He was about to be impeached, impeached by the Democrats, and he completely fell apart. Bolton is a fool. He is a stupid fool. But in reality, he played a good role because he is a madman. Every time he walked into a room, people felt like you were going to war. He was one of the people who convinced Bush to go into the Middle East, bomb it, and ultimately destroy the whole world. But nothing happened. What did we get from that? We bombed the Middle East. No one got anything from it. That was Bolton's doing. You can disregard him. You can name every person you talk about. I will tell you why I don't want them to support me. Now I have great people, you know, I rebuilt the military.

Miller: The president's dinner is running late.

Biden has no cabinet members standing up against him.

Trump: Because Biden is completely different from me. He kept the bad people. For example, on the Afghanistan issue, he kept Milley. Milley should be fired immediately. Based on his comments about China, Milley should be fired. If he really said those things, that would be a very serious matter. You know, regarding China, if he really said it, I think he did say it because there is a tape. That is indeed a serious issue. But he should be fired for that. Others should be fired too. Many people should be fired. I have indeed fired some people, fired a lot of people. Now, I let them resign because, you know, I have a heart. I don't want to embarrass anyone. But those people were almost all fired by me.

You can look at the people in the military. I said, "General, give me a letter." They each handed me a letter. So, they handed me a letter. I think I won't do that anymore. I think from now on, I will fire them. You know why? Because they said they resigned. They didn't resign. I said, "Give me a letter." That's the gentlemanly thing to do. "General, give me the letter." I dealt with ISIS. Some said it would take five years, but I solved it in a very short time. Our military is very strong, and if you look at our military, I have the support of the military, the common people, and real generals, not the generals on TV. But you can ask around, I have the support of 90% to 95% of the people. They would all support me.

You will—

Miller: Eric, Eric, I have to go to the president's dinner. Sorry.

Before they go, is there anything we haven't talked about?

Trump: No.

Did I miss anything?

Trump: No, I think the interview was very successful.

Thank you very much—

Trump: If it is written objectively, then it is a successful interview.

I have many more questions I want to ask you.

Trump: I find those questions very interesting.

I just want to ask some good, deep questions. I have many topics I want to discuss.

Trump: I only ask for one thing: to be treated fairly.

I will, sir.

Trump: Let me put it this way. Everyone wants to work for me. Many people say, "Oh, will he work for me? Will he be vice president? Will he accept?" Vice president? Everyone across the country is calling me, begging me to be vice president. Everyone is calling me, wanting to get into the cabinet. Everyone wants to work for me. Everyone wants to. Saying "General, give me a letter" or "Who gives me a letter" is a good practice. I think I won't do that anymore. But it's a good thing. But everyone wants to work for me. We will have a very successful government. The advantage I have now is that I know everyone. I understand them, know their strengths, weaknesses, foolishness, and intelligence. I know everyone. When I first got to Washington, I knew very few people. I had to rely on others. Some of those people gave me very good advice.

People close to you tell me you are now more suspicious of everything—

Trump: Suspicious of what?

Suspicious that someone in Washington is betraying you?

Trump: I haven't become more suspicious. I know the way of nature—that's how nature works. I run a tough company, and some people can't handle it. You know, working for Biden is very easy. He never fires anyone. He should fire everyone related to Afghanistan. He should fire everyone related to border issues. I would fire everyone, and that would be big news.

Miller: Eric, he is ten minutes late for dinner.

Okay, okay. I don't want to be rude.

Trump: No, I find it very interesting.

Thank you, sir.

Trump: Thank you very much.

Trump's follow-up phone interview

Two weeks after the interview at Mar-a-Lago, Time magazine conducted a 20-minute phone interview with Trump on April 27. Here is a lightly edited transcript of the conversation.

Last time we talked, you mentioned you would announce a policy on the abortion pill mifepristone within the next couple of weeks. You haven't announced it yet. Do you want to announce it now?

Trump: No, I haven't. I will announce it in the next week or two. But frankly, I don't think it will be shocking. But I will announce it in the next week or two. We support helping women, Eric. I support helping women. You may have seen that in vitro fertilization has been very effective. And, you know, I developed a policy that Republicans immediately adopted.

Indeed.

Trump: This is a good policy for women. You have to understand, this is to help women, not to hurt women. So, I think in vitro fertilization technology has now become part of our work. This is important. I think this should have been during the same period we interviewed. But in terms of the final result—you also saw that Alabama and other states have now passed legislation approving this technology.

Yes, yes. Of course, Arizona has also passed related laws.

Trump: Yes.

Mr. President, Iran recently launched a large-scale attack on Israel from its territory for the first time.

Trump: Yes.

If Israel and Iran go to war, should the U.S. support Israel in launching military strikes against Iran?

Trump: Yes, if that happens. Many people say this was a ritualistic attack because it allowed everyone to know what happened. If that's the case, then it would be a good thing, not a bad thing. But many people say that attack was, you know, I mean, everyone knows. I heard about the attack before it happened, and others did too. So it depends, the answer is yes. If they attack Israel, yes, we will go.

Understood. Well, in this regard, as you know, there are currently campus protests across the country against Israel, against Israel's war in Gaza, against America's stance there.

Trump: Yes.

Your former Secretary of Defense said that during the Black Lives Matter movement, you suggested shooting protesters in the legs—

Trump: Yes, which Secretary of Defense?

It was Esper.

Trump: Well, he was my worst Secretary of Defense. He is a weak and incompetent person. He was recommended by some moderate Republicans whom I don't respect much. But you know, I didn't serve for long. So I had to rely on others. No, he was a very incompetent Secretary of Defense. But I want to ask, are you talking about the situation at universities or something else?

I just want to ask, as president, would you use the U.S. military against protesters?

Trump: If the police can't stop them, I would definitely use the National Guard. I would definitely use the National Guard. I mean, if you look at the Washington Monument incident, I passed a law. I cited an old law and made it effective that if you desecrate a monument, you would face at least 10 years in prison, with no possibility of parole, and it would take effect immediately. I didn't have to use too many resources. This was related to the monument. It was a time when people liked to tear down monuments.

I signed a law that stated that desecrators of monuments would be sentenced to ten years in prison, no less than ten years. You know, this was very effective. I don't know, I think you saw it too, everything stopped after that.

I remember that time, sir. So you would rule out using the military against protesters?

Trump: I would use the National Guard. I think you don't need to use more force.

You often talk about "wokeness" on college campuses. Polls show that most supporters believe that anti-white racism is now worse than anti-black racism. Do you agree?

Trump: Oh, I think there is a lot to say about this issue. If you look at the Biden administration, they are against anyone who holds a specific viewpoint. They are against Catholics, against many different people. They don't even know what they are opposing, but they oppose a lot of things. But I do think there is indeed anti-white sentiment in this country, and that cannot be allowed.

As president, how would you address this issue?

Trump: Frankly, I don't think it's a difficult matter. But I think the current laws are very unfair. Education is also being treated unfairly and is being suppressed. But I don't think this is a big issue at all. But if you look now, there is definitely bias against white people, and that is a problem.

I want to hear your views on China. Do you think the U.S. should defend Taiwan if China invades?

Trump: I've been asked this question many times, and I always refuse to answer because I don't want to reveal my cards to an outstanding journalist like you. But the answer is no. China knows my answer very well. But they must understand that such things will not happen easily. But what I want to say is that while I want to make a public statement, I have never made a public statement because I don't want to weaken my negotiating power by revealing such information to any journalist.

I understand your position—

Trump: If you really come out and make some kind of statement, your position will become very bad.

I understand, sir. Taiwan has stated that U.S. aid to Ukraine is crucial to preventing China from reclaiming Taiwan. Do you agree with that?

Trump: Well, I think they have the same idea. Are we going to help them like we help Ukraine? So they want to think that way; they believe that if you don't help Ukraine, then you probably won't help them either. So I think from their policy perspective, it's difficult. This is America's policy. It's to help countries in distress.

You have said that if Israel goes to war with Iran, you would support Israel. Do you think the U.S. can maintain troops in the Middle East while also containing the expansionist goals of Russia and China, or do we need to withdraw troops to fulfill our obligations overseas?

Trump: I think we have many options. I think we shouldn't be in many places, and we might not be in some places where we should be. In terms of the military, we have many options. We can manage our expectations, and the military can be quickly deployed to certain places.

Would you withdraw troops from South Korea?

Trump: I hope South Korea treats us well. As you know, I negotiated with them because they hardly paid anything for the 40,000 troops we have stationed there. We have 40,000 troops, and the situation is somewhat dangerous, to put it mildly, because there is a person next door with whom I have a good relationship, but he has his own views on things.

We have 40,000 troops in a precarious situation. I told South Korea that it was time for them to pay up. They have become very wealthy. We have basically provided most of our troops there for free. They agreed to pay billions of dollars. Now, maybe because I'm not there anymore, they are paying very little. I don't know if you know this, but they renegotiated the deal I made. They are paying very little. But they paid billions of dollars for our troops stationed there. As far as I know, they renegotiated with the Biden administration and brought that number down to almost zero.

Understood. President Trump, you have always—

Trump: This makes no sense, Eric. Why should we defend others? And we are talking about a very wealthy country. But they are a very wealthy country; why don't they want to pay? They actually, they are a pleasant deal. It wasn't easy at first, but eventually, they became a pleasant deal. They agreed to pay the U.S. billions of dollars as the cost of our troops being stationed there. Billions of dollars, a lot of money.

President Trump, you are the leader of the world's strongest democratic nation, and you have dealt with leaders of authoritarian countries. Why is democracy better than authoritarianism?

Trump: Well, it's because of the word freedom. You have freedom. You have all the advantages and no disadvantages. If you have true democracy, you have freedom. I think when we see the weaponization of the Department of Justice and the FBI, our democracy is becoming less and less democratic. Look at what happened with the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA). Look at everything that has happened, and we find that our democracy is diminishing. But if the democratic system works properly, and when I return to the White House, it will definitely work properly, it will be a very well-functioning democracy, not like we have now. I think our current situation is that presidential candidates have to spend eight hours a day in court instead of campaigning meaninglessly. More than zero. More than nonsense. And all of this is orchestrated and pushed by the Biden administration. I think this is no longer democracy. I think this is something that only third-world countries would do.

I want you to respond to another thing you said that caused controversy. You once wrote on Truth Social that you might have to terminate parts of the Constitution. What did you mean?

Trump: I never said that. I never said that. When I talk about certain things, nothing is more important than our Constitution. But the Democrats have violated our Constitution through improper elections and many other things. They have used the FBI and the Department of Justice to unfairly and unconstitutionally pursue people, thereby violating the Constitution. I have a judge who issued a gag order against me, and I am the leading candidate, leading Biden. I am the Republican candidate, significantly leading Biden. Eric, I don't know if you have seen the recent polls. If you want, we can send them to you. Jason, please send them to Eric, thank you.

Jason Miller: Okay, sir.

Trump: But we are basically leading in all the swing states and overall, you know, I am in a lawsuit. The lawsuit incited by Biden, the judge issued a gag order against me, preventing me from answering many very important questions. This is unconstitutional. I will end these unconstitutional actions. That is what I meant. They have violated the Constitution. They have seriously deviated from our Constitution. I am referring to the fascists and some people in our government because I believe they are enemies within. I think in many cases, internal enemies are more dangerous to our country than external enemies, and external enemies include China, Russia, and other countries. Frankly, who the enemy is depends on who the president is.

President Trump—

Trump: Because if you have the right president, you can deal with them very cleverly, and everyone will be very satisfied. But if you don't have the right president, I agree they will become powerful enemies. But if the president knows what he is doing, then the threat from internal enemies to this country is greater than that from external enemies. Because if the president is excellent, reliable, and the right choice, then you don't have to worry about China, Russia, or other countries, but you will still face issues from the pathological people domestically.

Mr. President, in our last conversation, you said you were not concerned about political violence related to the November elections. You said, "I think we will win, and there will be no violence." What if you don't win, sir?

Trump: Well, I think we will win. We are far ahead. I think they can't act like they did last time; the last election was too terrible. Absolutely awful. They did too much, too many things against the rules. Everyone knows this. We could list a long list, but I don't think we will do that. I think we will win. If we don't win, it will depend on the situation. It always depends on the fairness of the election. I don't believe they can act like they did last time. I think they will not succeed. If that is the case, we will win in record numbers.

One last question, Mr. President, because I know your time is limited, thank you for your generosity. We just marked the fourth anniversary of the COVID pandemic. One of your historic achievements is "Operation Warp Speed." If another pandemic occurs, would you take the same actions to produce and distribute vaccines as quickly as possible to get Americans vaccinated?

Trump: I did an outstanding job. I appreciate the way you asked the question. I have a very important Democratic friend who might vote for me, but I can't be 100% sure because he is a serious Democrat, and he asked me this question. He said "Operation Warp Speed" is one of the greatest achievements in government history. Everything you did is incredible, the speed of it, knowing that the whole process originally would take five to twelve years. Not only that: ventilators, treatments, Regeneron, and other things. Regeneron was incredible. But treatments—everything. Overall—"Operation Warp Speed," you never talk about it. The Democrats talk about it as if it is the greatest achievement. So I don't talk about it. I let others talk about it.

You know, you have two strong opinions about vaccines. This is interesting. Democrats love vaccines. Democrats. The only reason I don't take credit for it. Republicans often don't do that, although I can tell you that many of them got vaccinated. This is very interesting. Some people say the most. I say, "Well, you didn't get vaccinated, did you?" In fact, he did, but you know, wait a minute.

But Democrats think this is an incredible achievement, and they want to take credit for it, while Republicans do not. I won't bring it up. What I do is the right thing. In fact, we received a lot of credit for "Operation Warp Speed." Its power and speed are incredible. Don't forget, I said no one knew what this was. You know, we spent two and a half years, almost three years, and no one thought of it. Everyone thought the flu pandemic was an old issue. No longer a modern issue, right? You know, you wouldn't think of this issue, would you? You heard about the 1917 flu pandemic in Europe. You wouldn't think that would happen. You learned that if possible. But no one foresaw this situation; we took it over, and I don't blame the previous management at all because, similarly, no one foresaw this situation. But at that time, our reserves were very low.

We had no protective suits, no masks. No goggles, no medications. No ventilators. We had nothing. The reserves were completely depleted. I injected vitality into this country, which was unprecedented. Many people praised me for it. Unfortunately, most of those who praised me were Democrats.

So, sir, if this situation were to happen again in the next four years, would you do the same thing to get vaccines to Americans as quickly as possible?

Trump: Well, the situation has changed. I mean, you know, when it first appeared, we didn't know what it was; it was something no one had heard of. At that time, they didn't call it COVID-19. They gave it various names. Somehow, they finally settled on COVID-19. It was the China virus, and it had other various names.

But when it appeared, no one knew what was going on. They only knew there was dust coming from China. And bad things were happening near Wuhan, China. You know, I predicted it. I think you should know that I firmly said it came from Wuhan. It came from the Wuhan lab. I said that from day one. Because what I saw made me believe, very firmly believe. But I was right about what I said at that time. Now many people say Trump was really right. Many people say, "Oh, it came from a cave, or from other countries." China tried to make people believe it came from Italy and France, you know, first Italy, then France. I said, "No, it came from China, from the Wuhan lab." That is the fact. I said that a long time ago and never said anything else. But "Operation Warp Speed" earned me a lot of praise. Most of it came from Democrats. I think a significant portion of Republicans also support this action. But many people are unwilling to admit it, unwilling to talk about it.

So, to follow up one last time: The Biden administration established the Office of Pandemic Preparedness and Response Policy, a permanent office in the executive branch responsible for preparing for pandemics that have not yet emerged. In 2018, you disbanded a similar office set up by Obama. Would you also disband Biden's office?

Trump: Well, he wants to spend money on things that we don't know will happen in 100 years, 50 years, or 25 years. It's just a way of spending money. Yes, I might do that because I think we have learned a lot, and we can mobilize, you know, we can mobilize. When you encounter something, most of what you do and most of the equipment you buy is outdated. As for medications, you know, these medications vary greatly depending on different strains, different types of flu or viruses. You know, things change so much. So, yes, I think I would. That doesn't mean we won't keep an eye on pandemics at all times. But it's hard to predict what will happen in the future because there are many variants of these pandemics. I mean, if you look closely, you'll find these variants are incredible. But we did very well in terms of treatment. And these therapies are for this pandemic, not for other diseases. So, no, I think this is just another—politically, it sounds good, but I think it's a very expensive solution, and it won't work. When you see it happening, you have to act quickly.

Mr. President, thank you for being so generous with your time today at Mar-a-Lago, thank you. I'm glad to have the opportunity to ask you these questions.

Trump: Thank you, Eric. It's an honor to meet you. Feel free to call me anytime, okay?

Alright, I will, sir. Thank you.

Trump: Okay. Thank you very much.

Correction, April 30: The original version of this transcript incorrectly attributed the proposal to repeal the 22nd Amendment to the "25 Project" of the Heritage Foundation, rather than to the magazine "American Conservative."

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