Harvester carries a negative connotation, and I don't like this term.
Organized by: Deep Tide TechFlow
Sun, always a figure of interest in the crypto world.
From eye-catching remarks on social media to interesting anecdotes from personal life, every little detail attracts everyone's curiosity.
Today, Hua Zong had a two-and-a-half-hour conversation with Sun Yuchen in his podcast "Kaiqiang," from his intention to invest in Jia Yueting's IP e-commerce company to the coconut chicken anecdotes in the legend.
TechFlow has organized and edited the podcast content, and extracted key points to share with everyone.
The following is the full text of the podcast:
Hua Zong:
Hello everyone, I'm Hua Zong, welcome to "Kaiqiang." Through this program, I hope to present more aspects of the stories and characters in my eyes. The guest interviewed in this issue is Sun Yuchen. I first met him about 10 years ago when he had just returned to China to start a business, and he was very green. Ten years later, he became more famous and richer, and the controversies surrounding him became unprecedentedly intense. A few days ago, I met him in Hong Kong, and the following content comes from our two-and-a-half-hour conversation.
Why do you want to invest in Jia Yueting
Hua Zong: Today, the reason I'm here to talk to you is because some time ago, I saw an interaction between you and Teacher Jia. It can't really be called an interaction, it should be your unilateral statement that you intend to support him in establishing an IP company. Can you tell us about this?
Sun Yuchen:
I've actually been paying attention to Jia Yueting for quite a long time. I was a heavy user of LeTV in the early days, whether it was LeTV phones, LeTV TVs, or the later acquisition of Yidao used cars. I've used almost every LeTV product, and I was a heavy user.
Because I was doing the internet at that time, I felt that LeTV had quite a lot of believers in China, because they thought LeTV might be the most hopeful company to become an Apple among the A-share listed companies at that time. It can be said that at that time, whether it was institutions or individual investors, there was great expectation for LeTV.
Hua Zong: Why do you think LeTV would be like Apple, is it because of the ecological concept advocated by LeTV?
Sun Yuchen:
Yes, I think for several reasons. First, the quality of the internet sector in A-share listed companies was not particularly high, because many well-known companies were unable to list on the mainland Chinese capital market due to structural issues.
At that time, most companies, whether in terms of internet thinking or overall tone, couldn't compare with LeTV. Like Apple, LeTV was building a complete ecosystem. After starting with content and television, they intended to imitate Apple and Tesla, hoping to develop in areas such as mobile phones and electric cars. At that time, we felt that LeTV was the only company in the A-share capital market with the resources to do such things.
LeTV's stock price was very high at that time because mainstream institutions and investors believed in LeTV's story. LeTV's products were also quite good, but later, many problems occurred. I think the biggest problem was the significant issue with resource allocation. For example, LeTV Sports spent 500 million to buy the broadcasting rights of the English Premier League in Hong Kong, but later found out that they didn't have the rights to broadcast the Premier League in Hong Kong.
Spending a lot of time studying others' failures
Hua Zong: Do you think the significant issue with resource allocation is a strategic mistake or a tactical mistake?
Sun Yuchen: I personally think the strategy is correct, but there were many problems in the execution of tactics.
Hua Zong: Is it a decision-making problem or an execution problem?
Sun Yuchen: Actually, I think the top-level design is not a problem. Including today, Jia Yueting's top-level design has been proven to be correct, including the car. When LeTV started making cars, the main competitors in China were not on the field. So I think their strategic thinking was very forward-looking, but in execution, both in terms of timing and specific execution, there was a very serious misallocation of resources. Traditional industries also often experience such misallocation, and I study these things because I don't want to make such mistakes again.
Hua Zong: So you spend a lot of time studying the business stories and paths of others?
Sun Yuchen: Yes, I spend a lot of time studying. One important idea that Hupan University gave me is that people outside of business like to study the success of businesses because everyone wants to see the successful side of business and study how they succeeded. But people who do business are more interested in studying how to avoid these failures, which is actually a necessary factor for success. Like football players focus on Messi and Ronaldo because they are very successful in the field of football, but if you aspire to be like them, you should study more about those who were originally geniuses but later fell.
Ecology and Focus, Lessons Learned from LeTV
Hua Zong: You mentioned that focus actually refers to the ability and resources, determining what you should do. You can see the mountaintop, but if your physical strength and oxygen cylinder are insufficient, you shouldn't rush to the summit. Does this concept constantly remind you?
Sun Yuchen: Absolutely. And I think many people have overlooked the fact that running a business is very much like playing poker. Many people think that running a business is like having 100 points, and then striving for 100 points, and if not successful, there are still 90 points left. In fact, this understanding is completely wrong, especially in the internet industry. Our industry is winner takes all, and when eight people play poker at the table, in the end, everyone will be wiped out. What you need to think about is how to become the winner who takes all. LeTV should have focused on its own sub-ecosystem, with each one becoming a winner before entering the next field. The internet naturally abhors second place, and if you can't be the first, you will be wiped out very quickly.
Hua Zong: ByteDance has learned from LeTV's lessons, can you be more specific?
Sun Yuchen: ByteDance has done very well in resource allocation and strategic focus. They invest heavily in every field to ensure success. For example, in the short video field, they invested a lot more resources than their competitors. Like Lin Biao in the Chinese Civil War, he liked to concentrate superior forces in local battles, so even if he was at a disadvantage overall, he would win in local battles. ByteDance has also adopted a similar strategy, investing heavily in a specific field to ensure victory.
I don't think Jia Yueting is a fraud
Hua Zong: Many people say that Jia Yueting is a fraud, what do you think?
Sun Yuchen: First of all, I don't think Jia Yueting is a fraud. If he said that after obtaining a large amount of resources, he turned to personal enjoyment instead of investing in the actual operation of the company, then that would indeed be fraudulent. But I think he is serious about what he does, and he will invest resources in what he wants to do. Whether he can succeed is another matter. I know there is a lot of skepticism about him in society, especially regarding financial transparency, so I think if Jia Yueting starts a new business, financial transparency is the most important, because the public has lost confidence in him in this regard.
Hua Zong: What is your definition of a fraudster?
Sun Yuchen: I think a real fraudster is someone who quickly disappears and evades investigation after obtaining public funds. I know many such fraudsters, who quickly disappear after obtaining public funds, even faking their own deaths. But Jia Yueting is not that kind of fraudster; he is someone who invests resources seriously into his business after obtaining them.
Hua Zong: Is "Fake it till you make it" considered a scam?
Sun Yuchen: I don't think this is a scam. This is a strategic packaging by entrepreneurs before they fully achieve their goals, but it is not malicious deception. Real fraudsters are those who have no possibility of achieving their goals but are still obtaining funds. There are many companies in Silicon Valley that are similar, they propose unverified ideas to attract investors. I think this is different from the internet venture capital environment, where the transformation of existing ideas is more common.
Unintentionally pulling Jia Yueting into the coin circle, just wanted to hand him a bottle of water
Hua Zong: Jia Yueting spent 50 million to make a model of an elephant, what do you think?
Sun Yuchen: This is also a problem of resource allocation. Jia Yueting spent 50 million to make a very beautiful model of an elephant, but this did not translate into actual business value. This is like a failure in resource allocation by entrepreneurs, although the money was not wasted on enjoyment, it did not achieve success in business.
Hua Zong: Are you trying to pull Jia Yueting into the coin circle?
Sun Yuchen: I'm not trying to pull him into the coin circle. I support him because I believe he has potential, but that doesn't mean I want to pull him into the coin circle. I hope he can rebuild public trust through financial transparency, which is key to his success.
Hua Zong: What do you think is your purpose in supporting Jia Yueting?
Sun Yuchen: I just think he has potential, and I hope to help him rebuild trust. It's like when a mountaineer is struggling, I hand him a bottle of water, hoping he can continue forward.
Hua Zong: How do you see the competition in the car manufacturing industry now?
Sun Yuchen: The competition in the car manufacturing industry is very intense. Only Tesla, BYD, and the Huawei group have a chance to survive. Other companies are facing significant challenges.
Hua Zong: How do you think Jia Yueting should respond to this situation?
Sun Yuchen: I think it's definitely too late for Jia Yueting to enter the car manufacturing industry now, and that's something everyone understands. He should learn from Lei Jun, with light assets, a light team, and light operations. Lei Jun earned money to pay off debts through live streaming IP, although it was only 6 billion, it was at least an attempt. Jia Yueting may be too late for car manufacturing, he should consider transitioning, selling off the car business, and entering other fields.
The Influence of Vitalik's Creation of Ethereum
Hua Zong: How much of an impact did Vitalik's creation of Ethereum have on you?
Sun Yuchen: I think Vitalik's creation of Ethereum was a decisive moment for me. Seeing someone so young create such an influential project gave me great inspiration and motivation. I felt that I should also bravely pursue my own dreams and continue to innovate.
Sometimes I feel like I'm an astrophysicist
Hua Zong: How do you view risk and failure?
Sun Yuchen: Sometimes I feel like I'm an astrophysicist. I've always been very interested in science and technology, especially in astrophysics. Although I ultimately chose business and entrepreneurship, scientific thinking and logical analysis have been very helpful to me.
I don't want to be burned at the stake like Bruno. Both running a business and investing involve significant risks, but the key is to learn to manage risks and avoid major failures. I think it's important to have precautions in place to ensure that there are strategies in place when faced with difficulties.
Disputes with the SEC - How to Manage Whales
Hua Zong: How do you view the disputes with the SEC?
Sun Yuchen: Disputes with the SEC are like managing whales. The SEC has its regulations, and we have our operating model. Sometimes these can conflict, but I think it's important to find a balance, to comply with the law while ensuring the company's development.
My situation is different from CZ's, but we can talk about anything
Hua Zong: What is your relationship with CZ from Binance?
Sun Yuchen: My situation is different from CZ's, but we can talk about anything. CZ is a very smart and visionary person, and we have common views and understanding on many things. Although we face different challenges and situations, it doesn't prevent us from communicating and cooperating.
The Origin of "Making money is the only measure of success"
Hua Zong: You mentioned "making money is the only measure of success" before, can you explain?
Sun Yuchen: "Making money is the only measure of success" is actually a joke, but it also has some truth to it. In the cryptocurrency world, a project's success is often directly related to its market value. Although we shouldn't be purely market value-oriented, it is indeed an important indicator of a project's popularity and market recognition.
Running a Company is My Only Hobby
Hua Zong: Do you have any other hobbies or interests?
Sun Yuchen: Running a company is my only hobby. I have a great passion for entrepreneurship and business, and I have invested almost all of my time and energy into it. Although I sometimes feel tired, all the efforts are worthwhile when I see the company grow and achieve success.
Ducks, Chickens, and Peacocks
Hua Zong: Can you tell the story of ducks, chickens, and peacocks?
Sun Yuchen: This is actually a metaphor I use to describe different types of entrepreneurs. Ducks represent those who work hard beneath the surface, chickens represent those who are content with the status quo, and peacocks represent those who like to show off. Different types of entrepreneurs have different characteristics, but the important thing is to find a way that suits you and continue to move forward.
My Idol is a Mixture of CZ and Vitalik
Hua Zong: Who do you consider your idol?
Sun Yuchen: I think my idol is a mixture of CZ and Vitalik, both of whom have achieved great success in the blockchain field. I hope to be able to focus on my own business and continue to innovate like them.
My Work/Life Philosophy
Hua Zong: What is your work and life philosophy?
Sun Yuchen: Everything can give way to work for me. I think at this stage, work is the only important thing, and everything else can be sacrificed for it. I'm like a professional athlete, repeating training every day, striving for the best state.
The "Sunflower Sutra" is a Mysterious Metaphor
Hua Zong: You mentioned the "Sunflower Sutra" as a mysterious metaphor, can you explain?
Sun Yuchen: The "Sunflower Sutra" is a symbol that represents a pursuit and exploration of the unknown. Just like our work in the blockchain field, we are constantly exploring, looking for new opportunities and breakthroughs.
Harvesters, Arbitrageurs, Traders, Astronauts
Hua Zong: Do you prefer to be called a harvester, arbitrageur, trader, or astronaut?
Sun Yuchen: I prefer to be called an astronaut. Next is a trader, followed by an arbitrageur, and lastly a harvester. I think an astronaut represents exploration and adventure, a trader represents a deep understanding and operation of the market, an arbitrageur is about finding opportunities in the market, and a harvester carries a negative connotation, and I don't like this term.
I don't think this is a ruthless game in the blockchain field
Hua Zong: Do you think in the blockchain field, this is a ruthless game?
Sun Yuchen: I don't think this is a ruthless game. I think it's a field full of opportunities and challenges, where everyone is looking for their position and opportunities. What we need is wisdom and strategy, not ruthlessness.
Machiavellianism and Social Darwinism
Hua Zong: Do you think Machiavellianism and social Darwinism are reflected in your work?
Sun Yuchen: To some extent, yes. In business competition, we need strategy and wisdom, just as Machiavelli said. In fierce market competition, only the strongest and most adaptable can survive, which is similar to the concept of social Darwinism.
Running a Company Should Fulfill Its Unique Mission
Hua Zong: What do you think is the most important thing in running a company?
Sun Yuchen: I think the most important thing in running a company is to fulfill its unique mission. Every company has its own mission and goals, and only by focusing on this goal can it be successful. Distracting energy will only lead to failure.
SBF Single-handedly Set the Industry Back Five Years
Hua Zong: How do you view SBF's impact on the industry?
Sun Yuchen: I think SBF single-handedly set the industry back five to ten years. His failure not only had a huge impact on himself, but also had a negative impact on the entire industry. The public distrust and regulatory distrust he caused, as well as all the future explanation costs, we may have to work doubly hard to make up for.
Dispute Between Whales and Fish
Hua Zong: You mentioned a dispute between whales and fish, can you explain in detail?
Sun Yuchen: I think the dispute between cryptocurrency and traditional finance is like a conflict between whales and fish. Cryptocurrency is a completely new thing, it does not belong to the category of traditional finance, and it requires a new regulatory model. Traditional finance is like fish, while cryptocurrency is like whales, requiring different management methods.
The Ideal Regulatory Model for Cryptocurrency
Hua Zong: What do you think is the ideal regulatory model for cryptocurrency?
Sun Yuchen: I believe cryptocurrency needs an independent regulatory model. Regulatory agencies need to understand the characteristics of cryptocurrency and develop specific regulatory policies, rather than simply applying traditional financial regulatory methods. This is the only way to better promote the development of cryptocurrency while protecting the interests of investors.
Wealth and Freedom
Hua Zong: Is making money now an especially easy thing for you? Will having money make you more or less free? Do you feel more or less free now compared to 2017 and 2018?
Sun Yuchen: First of all, I think making money is an indicator of business development, but my definition of making money may not be entirely the same as the public's understanding. Money is more like our score in this field; doing well earns a high score, doing poorly earns a low score. Of course, we also care a lot about this score, but this score does not bring more enjoyment. In fact, the more money you make, the larger the scale, and many things, whether it's regulatory agencies or the public, need to regulate it. For example, the troubles and controversies caused by TikTok in the United States are mainly because it has become too big.
I Wanted to Be a Lawyer
Hua Zong: Have you ever thought about another possibility in life? If you leave the cryptocurrency market, what would you do?
Sun Yuchen: Actually, before entering cryptocurrency, I intended to become a lawyer. I think at that time, many liberal arts students in the United States chose to go to law school after completing their master's degree because the income was high and stable. I had already completed my JD and was ready to be a lawyer in New York.
Passport and Coconut Chicken
Hua Zong: Which country's passport do you hold now?
Sun Yuchen: I currently hold a passport from a Caribbean country. Although our country does not recognize dual citizenship, I think the current situation is the best for me.
Hua Zong: You mentioned your friend "coconut chicken" before, what's the story behind that?
Sun Yuchen: This is a joke. Once, I mentioned on social media that I have a friend named "coconut chicken," and everyone was very interested. Actually, it was an experience I had in Hainan, where I had a very delicious coconut chicken, so I jokingly said it was my friend.
Since I Became a Fish, I'm Not Afraid of Being Twisted
Hua Zong: You mentioned an interesting metaphor before, saying that since you became a fish, you're not afraid of being twisted, can you explain?
Sun Yuchen: Yes, I feel that in this industry, sometimes we are like fish, we must constantly swim and adapt to the environment in order to survive. Only by constantly moving forward can we avoid being eliminated. Just like fish, if we stop, we will be caught or die, so I always maintain this attitude of moving forward.
Actually, I'm Ruan Xiaoqi
Hua Zong: Many people have various opinions about you, how do you view these evaluations?
Sun Yuchen: Actually, I have always been constantly trying and exploring. I like to challenge new fields, constantly improving myself as if playing a game. In this process, I think the most important thing is to stay true to the original intention, find what I truly like and excel at, and continuously strive to achieve it.
I made a fun analogy; I am like Ruan Xiaoqi in the Water Margin. It was very interesting when everyone was fighting for supremacy in the Water Margin, and in the end, only Ruan Xiaoqi ran to Vietnam and Thailand to become a king. In fact, Ruan Xiaoqi is very interesting; he has already jumped out of the entire Water Margin novel.
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