On January 30, 2024, at 23:30, the Socrates Web3 Eccentric Debate, which has been listened to millions of times, successfully concluded. The topic of the debate was "After CZ's liquidation, will Sun Gu face the same fate in 2024?" In this two-and-a-half-hour mental battle, the two sides did not give in, presenting their brilliant arguments, and staged a battle without gunpowder…
Introduction of Affirmative and Negative Debaters and Guests
- Affirmative Debaters
Affirmative View: Sun Gu will be liquidated
Affirmative First Debater ming_lau (https://twitter.com/minglaugodel): Ming Ge is the co-founder and chief operating officer of TRON, and a classmate of Sun Yuchen at Peking University.
Affirmative Second Debater Phyrex (https://twitter.com/Phyrex_Ni): Da Ni is a data analyst and an OG in Bitcoin and Ethereum, with a deep understanding of macroeconomics.
Affirmative Third Debater anymose.eth (https://twitter.com/anymose96): Anymose is a Web3 popular science writer, the founder of the Qishou community, a supporter of Gitcoin in the Asia region, and a consultant for well-known Web3 projects in China.
- Negative Debaters
Negative View: Sun Gu will not be liquidated
Negative First Debater STK: STK is the founder of STK-Z.STKDAO, as well as a guardian of privacy wealth and a metaverse stargazer.
Negative Second Debater Security Diary (https://twitter.com/BTCbaoan): Security Diary is a well-known expert in Web3 product management and has experience in planning behind several well-known projects.
Negative Third Debater Mike (https://twitter.com/mikelee205): Mike is the founder of GoPlus Security and the world's largest user security data service provider. He has 17 years of experience in user-side product technology and has entrepreneurial experience with over 100 million users.
- Special Guests
HongKongDoll (https://twitter.com/MyHongKongDoll): HongKongDoll is a highly anticipated Web3 beauty KOL, with extensive influence on social platforms and a creator at Binance Square.
Sora Aoi: Sora Aoi needs no introduction, a youthful memory, a childhood goddess.
- Observer Team
Goku is Cool (https://twitter.com/gokunocool): I believe everyone is familiar with Goku, not only a long-time friend of our Web3 Eccentric Debate, but also a co-founder of Mainelabs and the host of GokuShow.
Lawyer Liu: Lawyer Liu is a well-known director and senior partner lawyer of a domestic digital economy law firm. He has rich professional knowledge and experience in the fields of virtual currency, blockchain, and foreign exchange, and also serves as a researcher at several well-known political and legal universities. He will bring unique perspectives to our debate.
First Round of Debate: Three-minute alternating speeches
According to the rules of a regular debate, the first round of speeches will be conducted in an alternating manner between the affirmative and negative sides. In this segment, each debater will have three minutes to explain their viewpoint.
The first to speak is our affirmative first debater ming_lau. Ming Ge believes that Sun Yuchen is likely to face liquidation in 2024. It is believed that players in the crypto circle are familiar with Sun Yuchen's actions. With the successive downfall of SBF and CZ, the probability of Sun Yuchen acting alone is very small. Similar to CZ, Sun Yuchen is very likely to seek a settlement to clear his past misconduct. From the standpoint of both parties, this move is beneficial for both Sun Yuchen and the regulators, so liquidation is very likely to occur.
In response, negative first debater STK also expressed his viewpoint. He believes that Sun Yuchen is unlikely to face liquidation. His reasons include:
From a legal perspective, U.S. law enforcement agencies do not have jurisdiction over Sun Yuchen.
From a market perspective, it is difficult to argue that Sun Yuchen's influence in the U.S. can be compared to that of CZ. Compared to Binance's aggressive stance in the U.S., Sun Yuchen's main development direction has shifted to the domestic market, and the attention from U.S. authorities towards him is relatively low.
Based on these two points, STK believes that Sun Yuchen is unlikely to be liquidated and can continue to develop in the domestic market.
In response to negative first debater STK's speech, affirmative second debater Phyrex provided a rebuttal. Da Ni believes that the use of cryptocurrencies to fund terrorism has already attracted the attention of the U.S. government. The U.S. government has also explicitly identified the main channels for cryptocurrency funding of terrorism, including TRX. Sun Yuchen and TRON have been sued by the CFTC and SEC for this reason, but Sun Yuchen himself has not responded to the lawsuit. It is well known that 2024 is a U.S. election year, and the core theme may shift to geopolitical conflicts. Therefore, the U.S. will continue to focus on the compliance issues of cryptocurrencies, and Sun Yuchen, who is involved in terrorism financing, may find it difficult to escape liquidation.
Following negative second debater Security Diary, affirmative third debater anymose also expressed his viewpoint. Anymose believes that liquidation is not only a demand from regulators, but also a necessity for Sun Yuchen. It is well known that Sun Yuchen has become a public enemy in the crypto industry due to a series of rug pulls, and the tightening of regulations, geopolitical conflicts, national security, the U.S. election, and other factors have further increased the likelihood of Sun Yuchen being liquidated. At the same time, the new government in Grenada in 2023 has invalidated Sun Yuchen's diplomatic immunity, further increasing the probability of his liquidation. Therefore, taking the initiative to liquidate in a more dignified manner is actually a good way for Sun Yuchen to break free from the quagmire.
The last debater, negative third debater Mike, also expressed his opinion. Mike believes that with TRON's further strengthening of decentralized measures, the judicial cost of regulation and the difficulty of evidence collection for public chain fund flows are increasing. We need to understand that being worthy of liquidation and actually deciding on liquidation, initiating the liquidation process, and entering the judicial process are always two different things. Therefore, even though 2024 may be a year of strengthened regulation of digital currencies, it is still difficult for Sun Yuchen to be liquidated.
With the completion of the speeches by all six debaters from both sides, the first round of three-minute alternating speeches officially came to an end. Under the sharp debate of the debaters and guests, the debate was pushed to a climax. At this time, the arrival of a heavyweight figure completely ignited the entire scene…
Interlude: Sun Gu's Visit, Igniting the Entire Scene!
As the focus and participant of this debate, Sun Yuchen, Sun Gu, personally appeared at the scene of the Web3 Eccentric Debate. Sun Gu believes that the current Web3 not only needs profitable projects, but also needs media to export Web3 culture, and Web3 Eccentric Debate is a good form for this.
At the same time, with the controversial Sun Gu's arrival, it meant that the scene would definitely not be calm. In response to some sharp questions, Sun Gu clashed with the guests of this debate and sparked heated discussions.
It is indeed rare to have a direct conversation with Sun Gu, so affirmative second debater Da Ni decisively seized the opportunity to raise four major questions to Sun Yuchen based on the affirmative viewpoint:
- Is Sun Yuchen still serving as the ambassador of Grenada?
- There have been recent rumors that the Merkle Tree of BitTorrent has stopped updating. What is the current situation? Has the issue with BitTorrent been resolved?
- Regarding the SEC's lawsuit, Sun Yuchen has not responded before. What are the plans for the future? Is he planning to settle or does he have other arrangements?
- What are your thoughts on TRON becoming an important channel for terrorism financing?
In response to the series of questions raised by Da Ni, Sun Yuchen provided answers, but due to time constraints, he only addressed some of the questions.
First, regarding the first question, Sun Yuchen stated that he stepped down as the ambassador of Grenada in March 2023.
Second, regarding the SEC lawsuit, Sun Yuchen stated that the multiple extensions were actually the result of mutual agreement, and the future direction of this matter may tend towards settlement.
Third, regarding the issue of terrorism financing, Sun Yuchen believes that this is a topic that decentralized public chains cannot avoid, and besides TRON, other public chains also have similar concerns.
Finally, due to time constraints, Sun Gu did not answer all the questions. But Sun Gu stated that he will continue to pay attention to the Web3 Eccentric Debate and try to use the Socratic method to answer questions.
Second Round of Debate: Needlepoint vs. Wheat
With the conclusion of Sun Yuchen's speech, the stage returned to the hands of the debaters and guests. Thus, the second round of debate of this debate began.
The first shot of this round of debate was fired by negative first debater STK. STK believes that the core issue facing the United States at present is not counteracting terrorism, but economic recovery. Therefore, at this stage, it is clearly unreasonable to target Sun Yuchen and TRON for liquidation.
At the same time, STK emphasized once again that there is a fundamental difference between Sun Yuchen and CZ. He believes that CZ's liquidation is fundamentally due to his actions violating banking laws, while Sun Yuchen has always maintained a certain distance from the United States and does not have such issues.
Finally, STK also emphasized that the SEC's lawsuit against Sun Yuchen does not mean that Sun Yuchen is about to plead guilty. It is very likely that this is the result of negotiation between the two parties, and settlement and admitting guilt should not be confused.
In response to STK's remarks, affirmative second debater Da Ni made a rebuttal. He stated that the viewpoint that the current core issue facing the United States is an economic problem is untenable, because U.S. elections often accompany the Bitcoin halving cycle, during which the trends of both cryptocurrencies and U.S. stocks are very positive. Therefore, there is no economic problem, but rather a favorable trend.
In addition, regarding the issue of terrorism financing, there is already clear evidence in the United States identifying TRON as a channel for terrorism financing. Da Ni also discussed the compliance of some of Sun Yuchen's personal behaviors, which will have a significant impact on Sun Yuchen and BitTorrent.
Finally, the U.S. election may shift its focus to geopolitical conflicts, thereby increasing the intensity of the fight against terrorism. In this context, Sun Yuchen is very likely to become one of the first targets.
Faced with the fierce attack from affirmative second debater Da Ni, negative second debater Security Diary chose to look at Sun Yuchen's issues from a different perspective. He believes that in the issue of terrorism financing, TRON and BitTorrent, which are at the center of attention, are actually just tools. If viewed from this perspective, should WeChat, Telegram, and X also be considered to have a tendency for terrorism financing? If this is true, many people would probably find it unacceptable. Therefore, we need to recognize that tools themselves do not have a moral orientation, and the focus should be on the way they are used.
At the same time, Security Diary also believes that when judging Sun Yuchen, it is necessary to be comprehensive and objective, not only seeing the negative side, but also overlooking his positive contributions, such as some public welfare activities and promotion of decentralization.
In response to the views of negative second debater Security Diary, affirmative third debater anymose.eth made the following rebuttal:
Both Sun Yuchen and the regulators actually hope for a reasonable solution in 2024.
Sun Yuchen has personally confirmed that he stepped down as the ambassador of Grenada on March 31, 2023, so there is no issue of judicial jurisdiction.
Comparing the influence of CZ and Sun Yuchen is meaningless. We need to see that multiple U.S. departments have already sued Sun Yuchen.
The focus of this debate is the judicial handling of Sun Yuchen's behavior, not moral judgment, so the so-called positive contributions are a bit of a concept switch.
Based on these four points, there is a high probability that Sun Yuchen will face liquidation in 2024.
Following affirmative third debater anymose.eth, the last speaker of this round, negative third debater Mike, also expressed his viewpoint. He believes that litigation itself does not equate to the final result, so it is still unknown whether Sun Yuchen will be liquidated. In addition, the focus of the U.S. government's regulatory work is on anti-money laundering, and the difficulty of evidence collection and conviction for decentralized assets is extremely high, so it is still impossible to make a definitive conclusion on whether Sun Yuchen will be liquidated. (Mike believes that settlement does not belong to liquidation)
With the completion of all the speeches in the second round of this debate, it is clear that this round was much more intense than the first, with a lot more tension. However, it is also because of this that we have witnessed a very exciting debate. Next, the debaters and guests can take a break, and we invite our observer guests to share their insights.
Sharp Commentary from the Observer Team: Marketing and Legal Aspects
Today, the two guests of the observer team for this debate are our Goku is Cool and Lawyer Liu. In a sense, the two guests can be seen as having two extreme styles—humorous and rigorous. Today, they each provided their interpretations of the debate topic from the perspectives of marketing and law.
First to speak was our Goku is Cool. As an observer of this debate, Goku is Cool put forward a surprising viewpoint. In his view, when we are passionately debating, is it possible that all of this is actually part of Sun Gu's calculation, and it is all part of his marketing strategy. If true, Sun Gu is truly the top marketing genius in the crypto world, and Justin has once again won big.
It must be said that by throwing out this topic to Goku is Cool, the program's effect was guaranteed.
Turning to Lawyer Liu, professionalism and rigor were fully demonstrated. Lawyer Liu's speech mainly involved three issues:
Has Sun Yuchen's behavior violated U.S. law?
How is virtual currency classified under U.S. law?
Enforcement trends related to virtual currency business in China.
In response to the above questions, Lawyer Liu believes that it is not appropriate to make hasty conclusions before the conditions are sufficient, so he only analyzed the legal and practical aspects. However, he still provided us with many insights.
After the two observer guests finished speaking, we are about to enter the final stage of this debate—closing statements.
Final Sprint: Closing Statements
As the final stage of the entire debate, the closing statements require one representative from each side to summarize their respective viewpoints within three minutes. After this stage, the debate will officially end, and the final outcome will be determined by the number of votes on the Socrates platform, with the voting deadline set for 12:00 PM on January 31, 2024.
First, let's hear the closing statement from the affirmative side, represented by affirmative third debater anymose.eth.
"Teacher Ni and Ming have already conveyed the core viewpoints to us, so I take the liberty to summarize our position on behalf of our affirmative side. Today's debate has attracted participants from both sides, professional lawyers, and the parties involved, and the overall effect has been very good.
We need to return to the theme of the debate, because Sun Gu graduated from the law school of the University of Pennsylvania and is certainly familiar with the U.S. judicial system. Lawyer Liu just raised two questions from a professional perspective, one being a question of fact and the other a question of probability. Our affirmative side has always maintained one viewpoint, that in 2024, what is the outcome for Sun Gu with the U.S. judicial system, and what is the probability of this outcome? We believe that in 2024, there will be a result for both sides, which may be liquidation or downfall, but not what the negative side has been emphasizing, that Sun Gu will go to prison or go bankrupt.
Our viewpoint has already been established in Ming's first speech, with evidence from data, cases, other professional lawyers, and even Sun Gu's own statements, which show that both sides hope to resolve the historical burden in 2024. 2024 is a good opportunity for both sides, regardless of the method taken, whether it is a fine or another method.
During the entire debate today, we believe that the negative side did not provide many acceptable viewpoints. We did not feel that the other side understood the entire debate topic, nor did they refute the evidence we provided. Therefore, we firmly believe that in 2024, Sun Gu will be the next target for liquidation. Thank you."
Next, let's hear the closing statement from the negative side, represented by negative first debater STK.
"First, we need to clarify a fact: the lawsuit against Sun Gu by the SEC is different from the comprehensive liquidation of institutions. We have mentioned that this is a reckoning for historical crimes, a settling of old scores.
Lawyer Liu also mentioned that the issues Sun Gu is currently facing no longer involve violations of securities laws, as the Ripple victory has eliminated issues related to TRON's issuance. Since TRON and Ethereum have the same status, and the SEC's position on Ethereum is very vague, designating it as a commodity, and after the Ripple victory, it was also designated as a commodity. Therefore, Sun Gu does not have the so-called issue of TRON's issuance.
Regarding the issue of terrorism financing, we will not discuss it further, as it has already been made clear, and the focus of the United States is not in this area.
The third point is about the discussion of liquidation from the perspectives of law, market, and historical origins. The most important is the market perspective. The United States does not allow Binance to monopolize 80% of the market share. Just as Sun Gu just said, Binance is too big, too centralized, and has to be liquidated. Especially after the collapse of FTX, Binance directly became the king, and CZ became the crypto emperor, with no rivals. Therefore, whether for ruling purposes, legal purposes, or market purposes, CZ needs to be liquidated. But to be honest, compared to the crypto prince SBF, or even the crypto emperor CZ, Sun Gu is completely unqualified, and the iron fist of the ruling class cannot touch him.
Therefore, our viewpoint remains unchanged, that the U.S. government has no need and no time to liquidate Sun Gu. This is our viewpoint, Sun Gu will not be liquidated."_
Thank you to all six debaters for their wonderful debate. This round of closing statements has officially ended the debate. According to the voting results on the Socrates official website at 12:00 PM on January 31, 2024, the affirmative side won the debate. The three affirmative guests will receive a total reward of 30,000u, and the audience who voted for the affirmative side will share a pool of 20,000u.
Although the affirmative side received more support in the competition, and there is a winner and a loser, there is no hierarchy in viewpoints. We still thank the three guests from the negative side for their wonderful contributions!
After the Appearance, What Is Really Stirring People's Hearts?
After the live broadcast of the competition, let's discuss why this debate topic was chosen.
The debate topic for this debate was "After CZ's liquidation, will Sun Gu face the same fate in 2024?" At first glance, this is undoubtedly a very sensitive topic, and the reason for choosing such a sensitive and controversial topic as the debate topic is largely due to Socrates' keen insight into the prevailing negative sentiment in the current crypto market.
In the crypto world, one day is equivalent to ten years in the outside world, and in the past six months, the crypto market has indeed experienced too much.
"On November 21, 2023, Binance pleaded guilty to the U.S. Department of Justice, the Treasury Department, and the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC), and reached a settlement, agreeing to pay a total of $4.3 billion in fines and restitution to the U.S. federal government. At the same time, Binance's leader CZ Zhao Changpeng also admitted to money laundering and will resign as CEO of the company and pay a $50 million fine."
Regarding the protagonist of this news—CZ, it is needless to say that his influence in the crypto world is like that of an emperor. And this "crypto emperor" seems to have to leave under the hammer of regulation. Even from a logical perspective, this settlement may not be bad for CZ himself, but it cannot be denied that the sword of regulation is no longer satisfied with just hanging over his head, and when it falls completely, what kind of turmoil will the crypto world experience?
The fact proves that the use of both the carrot and the stick is not exclusive to the Chinese. Less than two months after CZ "submitted to the law," the U.S. authorities approved the application for a spot Bitcoin ETF.
"On January 11, 2024, the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) approved the application for a spot Bitcoin ETF for the first time, including 11 spot Bitcoin ETFs."
In terms of the news itself, it is difficult to say that the recognition of Bitcoin by mainstream society is not a good thing for the crypto world. But whether reflected in the price of the coin or the market sentiment, it is difficult to make an optimistic interpretation of this news.
Admittedly, the approval of a spot Bitcoin ETF opens up a more mainstream path for the future development of the crypto market, and it is foreseeable that a large amount of external funds will enter in the near future. However, the looming presence of the U.S. authorities and Wall Street in this process always makes people feel uneasy. Just like today's debate topic, perhaps what we care about is not Sun Yuchen's fate, nor the ETF itself. It is whether, after all this happens, after regulatory intervention, the crypto market can still practice freedom, fairness, and decentralization as usual.
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