Original interview from Isabel Foxen Duke

Translation by｜Odaily Planet Daily Golem（@web3_golem）

Editor’s Note: In March 2023, Domo launched the BRC-20 token standard. Over the past two years, the Bitcoin ecosystem has experienced the ups and downs of the crypto industry, from being overlooked and questioned to being widely embraced, only to fall back into obscurity. The birth of BRC-20 is undoubtedly epoch-making for the Bitcoin ecosystem, but who is still committed to the Bitcoin ecosystem and the BRC-20 today?

As we celebrate the second anniversary of BRC-20, founder Domo, who has never accepted video interviews before, has for the first time participated in an interview on Isabel Foxen Duke's program, sharing his crypto journey, the story before and after the birth of BRC-20, his views on UniSat, and future development plans for BRC-20. Odaily Planet Daily has organized and translated the original interview as follows, enjoy!

Entering the Industry from Data Analysis, Making First Profits During NFT Summer

Host: I’m glad you could come. This is your first video interview, and we want to take this opportunity for the audience to learn more about your story. I heard that before Ordinals and BRC-20, you didn’t really pay much attention to Bitcoin. Is that true? What were you doing before you got involved with the Ordinals protocol?

Domo: Two years ago, I indeed didn’t focus most of my energy on Bitcoin. Like most people, it was the Ordinals protocol that brought me back to Bitcoin. Before that, Bitcoin was just fluctuating in my account, but I wasn’t doing anything with it.

I got into cryptocurrency relatively late, starting my crypto journey in 2019, but my involvement was still shallow, mainly learning some basic crypto information through Reddit and YouTube. The real shift happened in the summer of 2020 when I was working in data science. I discovered DeFi innovations on Ethereum, especially projects like Uniswap.

There was very clean data on-chain, and I didn’t even need to spend hours processing it to analyze it. So, the first thing I did was scrape Ethereum data for analysis and built a Telegram bot to track on-chain traders, who turned out to be the most profitable group during that DeFi summer.

Later, I invested my entire monthly salary into Bitcoin and Ethereum, but they nearly bankrupted me, so I realized that perhaps there were opportunities only in the crypto-native space. Around January-February 2021, I discovered some particularly useful NFT Discords, and using my on-chain data skills, I captured a lot of Alpha during the NFT Summer market frenzy, so my financial performance in 2021 was excellent, and I had a great time.

But I was still looking for a way to join the industry full-time. Until November 2021, I met someone in an NFT Discord who was working for a large crypto payment company, and then I joined their company, leading the team’s on-chain data analysis work for the next few years until I released the BRC-20 protocol.

The Birth of BRC-20: Inspiration from Bitcoin Punks and .stas Domains

Host: Do you remember when you first heard about Ordinals?

Domo: I can’t recall the exact time, but I think I first saw it around January 2023. However, I didn’t do anything at that time. It wasn’t until February that I saw it again and realized it was no longer just an experimental thing being played with by a small group in a basement.

Early Ordinals collectibles also played an important role in the birth of BRC-20. For example, Bitcoin punks were the first to invent "Fair launch" on Bitcoin because we couldn’t distribute it through smart contracts.

Then the .stas domain was born, which truly brought Jason format data to the public and into the Bitcoin mempool. When I opened my computer at work and discovered it, I felt it was amazing; we had taken another step forward. The Ordinals protocol was no longer just an art protocol; it could also use Bitcoin as a data availability layer.

The infrastructure was right in front of us, and you could do what you wanted. So I started thinking if we could do something else? From that moment on, I viewed the Ordinals protocol as a gateway to Bitcoin data availability, easily accessible to most users regardless of their technical ability or background.

Host: Before creating the BRC-20 protocol, did you brainstorm this protocol with others? Or did you participate in any community discussions?

Domo: After seeing the .sats domain using JSON format on-chain, I came across a blogger called redphone who tweeted about it. He collaborated with Delphi Ventures to release a pseudo-specification. I thought his design would succeed, but it was missing a few key elements; however, it was still inspiring.

Later, I locked myself in a room for two days and created the BRC-20 protocol, but a large part of the credit still goes to redphone. In the following days, I established the starting date and indexer for the data, but it was the worst indexer ever; it broke down after just one hour of operation. However, it at least proved that this method was indeed feasible.

It took me some time to figure out two things: one was the tiered design of balances, including available balances and transferable balances. The other was how to prove ownership of something. Because in reality, anyone could inscribe and transfer to themselves, which meant anyone could steal anyone's balance. So I formulated a specification that should initially include four functions (deployment, minting, transferring, and trading).

The trading function was not initially launched because, considering the situation at the time, I thought it would add unnecessary complexity, and this issue could be resolved later. But I believed this omission was necessary. One of the biggest lessons I learned from this experience was to keep it simple; I think that was a key decision.

Host: So you launched this token standard and deployed the first inscription ever, then tweeted about it and started getting a lot of attention. What happened in the following week for you?

Domo: I initially deployed ordi as a test to prove whether this token standard was feasible. But in reality, someone used this protocol before I published the gitbook, so before I released the token standard, someone deployed another token. When I saw it, I thought I needed to publish this token standard as soon as possible.

An hour after the BRC-20 was released, my friend DM'd me saying this experiment was a failure, so I really didn’t sleep well that night. But I still believed ordi might be minted out within 24 hours. They might have used the inscription minting tool or the Ordinals client itself. At that time, I didn’t even know who specifically created an indexer to track ordi's transactions to check balances.

Host: Why was BRC-20 able to spread so quickly that tools started being built for it about 16 hours after you tweeted?

Domo: I think previous innovative attempts had already caught the attention of the core Ordinals community, like the .sats domain, so when something new came along to try, they were interested. Additionally, I think some people saw business opportunities in inscription tools, which would become cash cows with simple batch inscription implementations. Overall, from the user’s perspective, these were all favorable factors.

UniSat's Contribution to BRC-20

Host: When did UniSat get involved in the construction of BRC-20?

Domo: UniSat was originally an inscription tool, and they launched the indexer around early April 2023. But I don’t remember how I later got in touch with UniSat; maybe I DM'd them, or maybe they DM'd me.

At that time, I was receiving a lot of DMs from many people, including many scammers who would say I should deploy ORDI to Ethereum's liquidity pool. What attracted me to UniSat was that they had already developed relevant tools and had practical experience, indicating they had a solid technical team behind them. The UniSat team came from the BSV community, and in fact, most early builders and Ordinals players came from there. I think the emergence of the indexer also triggered a second wave of OTC frenzy because instead of blindly trusting, you could now verify through intermediaries whether you really received it.

Host: So, they voluntarily participated in the construction, and there was no collaboration between you?

Domo: I was really too tired at that time, so I was willing to support anyone who voluntarily built. UniSat was the most engaged and capable team at that time, and there were also various other teams that provided help early on, like Best In Slot, and I’m grateful for their assistance.

When building the indexer, I had some exchanges of opinions with UniSat, but I didn’t participate in the construction of the UniSat market. It wasn’t until UniSat established the BRC-20 market at the end of April that we really obtained good pricing data, which might have been the first time I truly started paying attention to prices because OTC trading is usually very unreliable.

Feeling Pressure After BRC-20's Explosive Popularity

Host: After BRC-20 became popular, did you feel pressure?

Domo: Yes, it was very stressful. Even though we had established the indexer, there were still many voices on Twitter saying it was wrong both technically and from a Bitcoin maximalist perspective.

Before I released BRC-20, I was "an Ethereum person" and didn't have the same connections in the Bitcoin community as I did in Ethereum. Frankly, I didn't know much about Bitcoin at that time. My view of the Bitcoin community was that it represented the ideals proposed by Satoshi Nakamoto, including open access, freedom, and fairness. So I was thinking about how to emulate the principles of fairness, freedom, and openness of Bitcoin in this experiment, which ultimately led me to make several decisions that I believe were crucial for the success of the fair minting feature.

However, the negative comments at that time had a significant impact on me. Some people would ask me what I would improve if I were to recreate BRC-20. But to me, BRC-20 is a one-in-a-million success story, and adjusting any design variable back then could have changed the outcome. BRC-20 is indeed a very inefficient protocol; we can improve it, but blind improvements also come with risks.

I’m glad I didn’t follow many of those suggestions. We adopted a slow improvement approach because I believe that only practical ideas can improve the protocol in the long run; acting hastily would only be a stopgap measure.

Not Informed About Exchange Listings in Advance

Host: Before ORDI was listed on centralized exchanges like OKX, were you involved in the listing process? Did you know what was going to happen next?

Domo: In fact, I wasn’t involved, except for Gate, which sent me a DM in advance, but when I woke up, I found it had already been listed. The only thing I can say is that there were some factors that facilitated the listing. From the perspective of exchanges listing tokens, 2023 was a unique time; not much was happening at the beginning of the year, and PEPE was just a flash in the pan. So BRC-20 was the star of the market narrative at that time, making it logical for these exchanges to list it.

Additionally, the vast majority of tokens held by exchanges are Bitcoin. My assumption at that time was that if Bitcoin left their exchanges and was traded on the UniSat market or other markets, it would create a liquidity bubble. To address this issue, exchanges could only list these assets and then build tools around them.

The Decentralization Path of BRC-20: It’s Good for BRC-20 to Exist Without Domo in the Future, but Not Yet

Host: Although the indexer built by UniSat is mainstream, Best In Slot also created an indexer. Can you share how Best In Slot got involved, what problems they were trying to solve, and how they attempted to index BRC-20 differently?

Domo: I met Best In Slot at a conference in Singapore in September 2023, and I might have seen them again in Miami; I don’t remember the exact time, but we had been chatting for a while. They mentioned that they built an indexer and that their team had a strong technical background from Ethereum, making indexing their specialty.

I was glad to have a super competitor interested in indexing BRC-20 because there was a narrative at that time that BRC-20 was centralized, and we needed a coalition of multiple indexers. So later we had OPI, which is a more decentralized client that anyone can easily run.

Host: When Casey made significant upgrades to the Ordinals protocol, what impact did it have on the BRC-20 indexer? How did you respond?

Domo: My primary concern was still security. In my view, some of the new upgrades did not improve the protocol and could pose risks to us. Ultimately, due to a lack of communication, the debate over the indexer caused some turmoil, but UniSat made compromises. I’m grateful for everyone’s cooperation; everyone agreed that any form of fork would not be in the best interest of the community, and we found a solution that suited everyone’s needs and interests.

Later, to avoid similar situations from happening again, we created the Layer 1 Foundation, whose best use is to establish some governance rules so that we can handle these decisions more intelligently in the future. UniSat and Best In Slot are both primary maintainers of this organization, collaborating with each other.

I’m very satisfied with this outcome; open-source protocols should be like this. Over time, the founder's ideas may not necessarily be the best. Better technology, more experience, and more people dedicated to the protocol joining are what make it healthy. I like this way of development; I feel more like a coordinator. In the future, Domo may no longer be a part of BRC-20, and I think that will be a good thing, but clearly, that’s not the case yet.

BRC-20's Swap Module and Programmable Module

Host: You’ve been discussing two major upgrades to the protocol over the past 8 or 9 months: the swap module and the programmable module. Can you share what these are?

Domo: The swap module dates back to the summer of 2023 when we realized that we weren’t trading these assets like fungible tokens but more like NFTs. Any reasonable protocol would strive to improve this user experience, which is why the swap module was born. Of course, we made a mistake at that time thinking that this black-and-white technology was unfeasible, but later UniSat and Fractal Network proved that the experience was good.

However, people are talking more about the UniSat swap, but this module is not exclusive to UniSat; any team can deploy the swap module and adopt the token.

I remember discussing the programmable module at a Bitcoin summit in Taiwan in 2023. I think it would be meaningful if they could solve the Bitcoin compatibility issue, such as binding data to Bitcoin using UTXO.

I believe that ultimately, programmable protocols will prevail in the market. Two years have passed, and we are still trading BRC-20 tokens in the same way we trade NFTs, which is a poor experience. If you are a Solana degen trading on the Bitcoin network, you might immediately want to go back to Solana. We must adapt to the market, which is why I’m interested in the programmable module.

But for me, the current priority is to ensure the survival of BRC-20 assets. The programmable module and the “Single Step Transfer” we have been researching can help BRC-20 better integrate into other ecosystems, so users don’t have to “hang themselves on one tree” with BRC-20, making the assets being created something that needs support rather than just the standard itself.

Host: Can the programmable module solve the interoperability issues between BRC-20 and other protocols like Runes, or do we still need L2? What are your thoughts?

Domo: Currently, there are various solutions, such as centralized cross-chain bridges, L1.5 layers, or those L2s. Interestingly, in the Bitcoin space, everyone is making trust assumptions about whom we should trust, etc. But if we approach it from an industry perspective, we should understand the needs of different people. For example, if you are a Bitcoin whale, only a few protocols like Babylon might meet your conditions.

But if you are a degen, you probably don’t care about these things because you are already used to centralization; you are just looking for Alpha. I don’t know how this interoperability game will ultimately play out, but I think it is still necessary.

Host: Do you think BRC-20 has an advantage over some other protocols that are developing programmability?

Domo: If BRC-20 does nothing at the moment, I think the most likely scenario is that some programmable protocols will emerge and dominate the market, while BRC-20 will be unable to participate because it lacks interoperability. But if BRC-20 takes the programmable route, then there is a chance to regain people’s attention, but that doesn’t mean it will definitely succeed.

Single Step Transfer of BRC-20

Host: As a builder, what problems do you hope the community will focus on solving?

Domo: I think many people only focus on immediate issues and overlook the many interesting things happening in the Bitcoin ecosystem. For example, months or even a year later, those Bitcoin VMs might create huge profit opportunities like DeFi. If I were a builder, I would work in that direction. Looking back at the early days of Ordinals, it was quite joyful to be part of this industry; people respected each other and were full of optimism. I hope people can return to that state.

Host: You’ve mentioned “Single Step Transfer” multiple times. Is this something BRC-20 users are looking forward to?

Domo: Single Step Transfer can abstract wallets and solve the issue of the number of Bitcoin wallets. It will not only improve the user experience but also make it easier for BRC-20 to integrate into other systems than before. Many current cross-chain bridge designs are still too complex for users; they are used to sending UTXOs, and the experience is similar to simple cross-chain bridge locking. We even plan to enable Lightning channels, etc., but I don’t want to make any commitments yet.

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